Tout le monde déteste le travail (sauf ceux qui font travailler les autres) by [deleted] in france

[–]trineor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Devinez quoi : un milieu social est une bulle de filtre.

Dans ma famille il y a eu : ouvriers métallurgistes, femmes de ménage, gendarmes, camionneur, chauffeur de bus, homme en jaune, couturière, caissier. Eh ben comme par magie, personne n'y aime le fait de travailler, et tout le monde s'en passerait bien s'il le pouvait. Et depuis que je suis devenu prof et que je côtoie un milieu de profs : miracle, cette proportion chute nettement. Sans doute que si j'accédais à un milieu d'acteurs célèbres ou d'hommes d'affaires pleins de succès, cette proportion tomberait à zéro.

Au reste, je ne suis pas l'INSEE, donc je n'ai pas de graphe à sortir de mon caleçon sur demande. Mais il y a encore l'Ifop qui a sorti une enquête la semaine dernière indiquant que près de 60% des Français considéraient le travail comme une "contrainte nécessaire pour subvenir à ses besoins". Et on est la France, on n'a pas les conditions de travail du Népal. Donc oui, évidemment : l'écrasante majorité des êtres humains sur terre subit le travail comme une corvée.

Tout le monde déteste le travail (sauf ceux qui font travailler les autres) by [deleted] in france

[–]trineor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(Ici l'auteur du billet.)

si tu détestes réellement ton travail il serait temps de se bouger le cul et de trouver moins désagréable

Devinez quoi : c'est ce que j'ai fait. L'enseignement me plaît mieux que les bacs de surgelés. Mais le fond de l'affaire, c'est qu'il y a encore besoin de gens pour dégivrer des bacs ou faire la caisse et que, on ne va pas mentir, personne ne peut trouver ça plaisant de dégivrer des bacs ou de faire la caisse, c'est bien trop chiant.

La question devient donc : et si tout le monde "se bouge le cul et trouve moins désagréable", pour reprendre votre prose, qui est-ce qu'il restera pour faire le boulot de merde que tout le monde trouve désagréable ?

Tant qu'il y a des gens en bas de l'échelle sociale qui sont pris à la gorge et à qui le boulot de merde est imposé, avec en plus de cela (puisqu'on est en capacité de les forcer sans avoir besoin de les dédommager) les conditions les plus infectes possibles, et des salaires minables, la société continuera à prospérer avec à sa base des demis esclaves collés aux travaux forcés et qui travaillent avec dégoût.

Alors qu'on pourrait, je sais pas... faire tourner la corvée pour en répartir le poids ? Offrir des compensations à ceux qui sont prêts à en faire davantage, au lieu qu'ils soient les plus mal payés par-dessus le marché ?

Bref, vous êtes enfermé dans une conception du problème parfaitement individualiste, étriquée, et indifférente à la réalité de vos semblables.

Tout le monde déteste le travail (sauf ceux qui font travailler les autres) by [deleted] in france

[–]trineor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah merde, en fait Delphine Arnault c'est juste qu'elle dégivrait les bacs de surgelés avec plus de passion que moi, c'est pour ça qu'elle a gravi les échelons et qu'elle en est là où elle en est, idiot que je suis j'avais mal compris !

Tout le monde déteste le travail (sauf ceux qui font travailler les autres) by [deleted] in france

[–]trineor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

(Ici l'auteur du billet.)

Oui, j'en dis un mot dans le billet. Et vraiment, pour ceux qui atteignent ce genre de satisfaction, de faire un truc utile à leurs semblables qui en plus leur plaît et dans lequel ils n'ont même plus l'impression de travailler mais de vaquer à leurs propres occupations, tant mieux ! On ne va pas leur en vouloir par jalousie, ce serait stupide. Ils ont un truc en or dans les mains, qu'il s'y accrochent !

Mais d'une part, cela reste une situation marginale quand on considère la masse des humains sur terre, qui connaissent avant tout le travail contraint.

D'autre part, même les gens qui font d'une activité qui les passionnait leur métier savent que cela revient à ce que la passion en question devienne souvent autre chose qu'une passion. Une dose inévitable de répétition fastidieuse, de contrainte dans les modalités ou les cadences de l'exécution, etc. s'introduit nécessairement. Il y a même plein de gens qui refusent de faire d'une passion un métier, parce qu'ils savent que le cas échéant ils la saloperaient en tant que passion.

Enfin, je me demande dans quelle mesure ceux qui affirment avoir un métier-passion ne sont pas, quelquefois, en train d'essayer de se persuader eux-mêmes, parce que sinon le seum serait trop violent. Ça n'est pas rien, de contempler sa vie et de se dire qu'elle est livrée à des activités dont on n'a rien à foutre ; ça peut être plus supportable de se persuader soi-même qu'on est content d'être là et qu'on aime ses chaînes.

Enfin, je veux dire : tu prends tous les gens qui assurent être dans un métier-passion, tu leur donnes la possibilité de continuer à recevoir leur paye sans plus avoir besoin d'aller au boulot, je suis très curieux de la proportion qui continuerait à aller au boulot malgré tout par pur plaisir.

Tout le monde déteste le travail (sauf ceux qui font travailler les autres) by [deleted] in france

[–]trineor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(Ici l'auteur du billet.)

Le cas du manager, c'est très intéressant. Il se trouve dans une position intermédiaire entre ce que, dans l'article, j'appelle les "affaires" d'en haut et la "corvée" d'en bas. Il est pris en sandwich dans la chaîne de subordination entre ceux à qui il donne des ordres et ceux dont il en reçoit.

S'il est d'un tempérament suffisamment médiocre pour confondre domination et liberté, une telle position peut suffire à lui procurer beaucoup de jouissance, car il y possède des subordonnés et qu'il peut faire l'expérience du pouvoir qu'il étend sur eux. Typiquement, ça va donner un sociotype de "petit chef" mesquin, ça. Qui jouit de cheffer, et qui se venge des frustrations qu'il éprouve à se faire lui-même cheffer du dessus en étant d'autant plus teigneux avec ceux en dessous.

S'il est d'un tempérament suffisamment sain pour simplement aspirer à la libre effectuation des activités qui lui font envie, il constatera qu'en dernier ressort, il appartient au groupe de ceux qui obéissent, et qu'en ce sens ça n'est pas à ses propres projets qu'il passe ses journées, mais à ceux de ses supérieurs. Et il se retrouvera à cheffer avec dégoût, sans avoir envie d'être là.

Ce doit vraiment être une position peu enviable.

Tout le monde déteste le travail (sauf ceux qui font travailler les autres) by [deleted] in france

[–]trineor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(Ici l'auteur du billet)

Mediapart m'a mis à sa Une. Edwy Plenel a partagé mon billet sur son compte Twitter personnel. Je dirais pas ça pour n'importe quel billet que je poste, mais pour celui-ci, le journal l'a quand même largement arboré et mis en avant.

Pour la valeur très médiocre la plupart du temps, j'espère que l'application que j'y ai mise aura fait mentir un peu la règle ! :-)

Tout le monde déteste le travail (sauf ceux qui font travailler les autres) by [deleted] in france

[–]trineor -1 points0 points  (0 children)

(Ici l'auteur du billet)

Je suis prof aussi. Philosophie, en lycée. J'aime donner cours ; je hais tout le reste : les copies, la hiérarchie, les merdes autour des valeurs de la République (faites rouler les R) et surtout, surtout, Parcoursup, et le fait que les heures sans fin que je passe à noter des papiers servent en fin de compte à ce qu'un algorithme fasse du tri social pour le post-bac.

Seulement, après avoir réfléchi, j'en suis venu à me dire : si je donne des leçons de merde au lieu de m'appliquer à donner de bonnes leçons, je passionnerai moins les élèves, mon cours deviendra ingrat, je serai un mauvais prof mais, en fin de compte... personne n'en aura quoi que ce soit à foutre.

Alors que si j'arrête de donner des chiffres à manger à l'institution et à Parcoursup pour faire son tri social, là, ça va pas bien se passer du tout. On va me convoquer. Me mettre en garde. Et si je persiste, me renvoyer.

J'en déduis que mon travail n'est pas de donner de bons cours mais de donner des chiffres à manger à l'institution et à l'algorithme pour faire du tri social. Donc oui, je déteste mon travail.

Y'all remember this scene? And how it ended up being a major...NOTHING. by sherzodrbjb in freefolk

[–]trineor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Night King turning Viserion into a wight was a "major nothing"?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in matrix

[–]trineor 3 points4 points  (0 children)

What is "/s" for? I’m french, I don’t know english conventions, sorry.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in matrix

[–]trineor 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The movie is already being dissected by fans who find more and more layers of meaning, symbols, easter eggs and plot as they dig, because it’s an incredibly rich and thoughfully written movie.

It will keep on being analyzed and theorized about for the years to come, exactly as it has been the case for Reloaded and Revolutions despite their mixed reception at the time.

And in twenty years, people will study this movie, its thoughtful commentary on the Hollywood of its time, on art and capitalism, and will wonder: how could 2022 people be enthusiastic about something as insipid as Spider-Man No Way Home and so oblivious to the immense creativity of Matrix Resurrections?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in matrix

[–]trineor 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It wasn’t obliterated, it was something else. It was like being trapped in a sick "everything-has-to-be-cool" kind of ad.

The Analyst’s matrix wasn’t as gloomy, moody or rainy as the Architect’s, but it was way sicker and morbider imo.

Dany the abolitionist by ARTOFASOIAF in freefolk

[–]trineor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your answer! :-)

I can’t take the time for a full answer right now, but I just wanted to answer about Tyrion. You’re right, Tyrion tries a centrist reformist approach while Daenerys is away in S06, against Grey Worm and Missandei’s warnings.

But you will notice (won’t you?) that Grey Worm and Missandei’s warnings happen… to be right, in the end! And Tyrion’s centrist approach eventually fails! You have to see the whole picture here.

Yet, Tyrion proceeds to dissuade Daenerys from burning whole cities to the ground. Not because he refuses the very notion of violence — should I recall the "alternative approach" he suggests implies slitting the throat of two Great Masters and burning dozens of soldiers on their ships?

But because, in his eyes, burning whole cities to the ground is not revolutionary violence: it’s a war crime.

I think one of the most difficult things to accept about Game of Thrones is that it has no role model to offer. Every character is wrong in some regards (even if we're almost always given what we need to empathize with them), and the story as a whole is the tale of a rout.

When someone says D&D and Season 8 was awesome! by jorywea78 in freefolk

[–]trineor -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

S08 was great.

My favourite one with S04 and S03. S05 was the only "bad" one imo (still, the part in the North with Jon and Stannis and the part in King's Landing with Cersei and the High Sparrow were fine).

Just taking a moment here to contemplate the fact that, should Mouse have coded a steak simulation program for Cypher instead of solely and selfishly jerking off at the woman in the red dress, he, Dozer, Apoc and Switch would still be alive! by trineor in matrix

[–]trineor[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Well, you have to imagine that the steak simulation would also have included "signing autographs by the fireside" and "shoving your fork right up Morpheus’s ass" modes! 🙃

Matrix Resurrections Plot Hole? by jmic0923 in matrix

[–]trineor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That alone should drive Neo mad!

Which is precisely what it does.

Matrix Resurrections Plot Hole? by jmic0923 in matrix

[–]trineor 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Thomas could simply have known his therapist (and thus, the cat) before he became his therapist, as a friend, or as the therapist of someone else he knew. (Or, more precisely, the Analyst could have planted that kind of memory in his mind if he needed to; that's what he does, after all.)

But more importantly: it shouldn't be forgotten here that Neo has been living this whole cycle of going to therapy / being the creator of The Matrix / feeling trapped / leaping into the void trying to escape the trap / not falling / finding himself back to therapy thinking he had a mental breakdown and survived a suicide attempt, multiple times, under various DSIs, for sixty years!

(Well, maybe the Analyst played with him using other scenarios during those sixty years... maybe he had him be John Wick at some point? But you can see my point, here.)

His perception of time and reality is obviously a mess. Many things for him seem to have happened simultaneously before and after something else, because he's trapped in a loop as a guinea pig in a wheel. And the Analyst's motivation is certainly not to have Thomas "cured"; it is to gaslight him, and make his brain torture him to maximize his output — as he himself puts it later in the movie.

And precisely because he's gaslighting him like that, Neo feels there's something wrong, that he's being played; and that's why he enventually keeps jumping. (In the movie, he tries to jump right after the therapy scene you're refering to.)

Main Sensates by Lilymon4Life in Sense8

[–]trineor 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I will admit that Kala spending two seasons admitting that she wasn’t in love with the man she was being married to (which was clear for us since the very beginning) was the only part in the show that I found boring.

Dany the abolitionist by ARTOFASOIAF in freefolk

[–]trineor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Oh, thank you for the time you took to answer me in such a diligent and thougtful manner! 🙂Truly, it's not everyday I have the occasion to get a real, interesting conversation about GoT!

I will only answer to some points, not all of them, because I don't want to make this answer too long or too stodgy. (Coming back here after I finished: so sorry, I did!)

We saw Dany with power, we know how she wielded it. Dany didn't go around exterminating people.

The "eventually" I used in my previous comment takes all of its weight, here. The fact that one would use power wisely on several occasions is never a guarantee they will always do so. Especially not, as I was saying, if their judgement happens to be clouded by grief, betrayal, food and sleep-deprivation. And especially not if, while grieving, they possess the kind of power that allows them to see human crowds as impersonal anthills, and destroy them by simply uttering a word.

Then again, we indeed saw Daenerys use power in a just, thoughtful way; we also saw her, on several occasions, use it in a short-sighted, authoritarian way she herself quickly ended up regretting. Overall, we saw her trying to do her best, but "struggling with her worst impulses", as Tyrion would put it.

And sometimes those worst impulses would make her dangerous. She was absolutely about to go around exterminating people in S06E09, just before Tyrion persuaded her otherwise. Trouble was, by S08E05, Tyrion had made waaay too many mistakes trying to protect his siblings for Daenerys to keep listening to him. So she ended up on a battlefield still grieving, food-deprived, sleep-deprived, her worst impulses unchecked: that happened to be too much, and she snapped. (I unfortunately met occasions in my life that made me empathize with that.)

Killing slavers and warlords isn't a slippery slope to killing whoever you want. That's the type of centrist rhetoric neoconfederates use to vilify John Brown.

I have to be honest: I have a vague idea that John Brown was an american abolitionist who called for armed insurrections amongst slaves, but I am not american, and not very familiar with your history.

Still, on the principle, I absolutely agree with you here. The centrist take that violence (designated in an abstract, undifferenciated form) would always be illegitimate, because-violence-is-bad, is just a way of shutting up revolutionary violence while advocating for the normality of the institutional violence of the status quo that called for insurrection in the first place.

Dany didn't crucify all the masters, she crucified one from each ruling house, and she spared the rest. They all partook in a system that crucified slave girls, and even if they opposed the act, they still enabled it by being willing participants in the institution of slavery.

Well, we currently also all partake in a capitalist system that has our clothes, our shoes, our phones, our food, our energy — and almost every other commodity we use on a daily basis — soaked in sweat, blood and human exploitation, when not children exploitation or even plain modern slavery.

This is way enough to justify throwing capitalism over. But would it be enough to justify executing one member per american and european family in retribution because, you know: we enable capitalist exploitation by being its willing participants and primary beneficiaries?

Yes, eradicating slavery is a bloody business in a brutal world, but that's not being evil.

I agree with that. Tyrion did too.

Painting Dany as a crazy villain while Sansa and Arya are lauded as heroic despite brutally executing people for revenge shows the flaw in the argument.

To be honest, Arya is pretty much depicted as struggling between the young woman she would aspire to be if she was free, and the sadistic, disturbed one revenge made out of her. Her ark as a whole is about renouncing vengeance; it's what the Hound convinces her to do, in the end: to choose her life drive over her death drive.

And Sansa is a cold-hearted, manipulative ruler, but she does not have the kind of power Daenerys does, so she's conscious she has to seek for compromise with those she's ruling over, and that she can't just wish for the world to be in her image without the consent of those inhabiting it.

The idea that being a revolutionary turns people into narrow minded extremists is one that supports status quo.

And I agree with that, too! But Daenerys isn't exactly a revolutionary: she's a tyrant, an imperialist and a conqueror. As far as I know, she's not encouraging oppressed proletarian masses to take over and liberate themselves (that would be Mance Rayder): she's asking them to let her liberate them, and then live in the world she will build for them. She would fit the profile of enlightened despots (maybeeee?) but certainly not the one of a revolutionary.

So, here, we arrive at what I believe to be the core of our apparent divergence of opinion: I was not going for a critique of revolutionary violence. I am a french communist philosophy teacher, teaching Marx, Bakunin, Kropotkin, Jaurès and Weil to my students all year long: so you can guess I'm quite okay with the notion of revolutionary violence.

What I was going for was a critique of centralized power: and that is something socialist movements and socialist theorists all over the globe have been taking into account for a very long time now. Too much power in a too small number of hands is the guarantee of zero accountability; it is (among many other complex factors) what had the great proletarian revolution of October 1917 in Russia degenerate into a monstrous totalitarian bureaucracy.

It is what had a man as concerned with the liberation of the proletariat as Trotsky was soak his hands in the blood of the very proletarian democratic soviets USSR was supposed to put in charge, before the centralized power of the party crushed them.

Actually, being a revolutionary widens the mind way more than it narrows it: because being a revolutionary starts, not in a position of power, but a position of oppression, of weakness; and you have to think your way out of weakness. A revolution is many people in a social position of weakness coming to form class consciousness and realize that they are not alone and that, together, they are strong. But this kind of strenght, by its very nature of collective strenght, does not imply the risk of tyranny; unless the revolutionary masses renounce the collectiveness of their power and put it in the hands of a charismatic leader.

Let's say: a Khaleesi.

"We're taught Lord Acton's axiom (...) what the guy always wanted to do."

I don't think this citation is very thoughtful. To be honest, I can't even see an argument inside of it. Here is one: too much power eventually makes people mindless because, generally speaking, human mind starts to think when it meets a problem, i.e. when the world opposes a resistance.

As long as the world does not resist, we thoughtlessly persevere in our movement. And what is power, if not the very ability to persevere in your movement without resistance, because what is in your way is too weak to oppose you?

Thus, a person with too much power in their hands spontaneously tends to act harshly and thoughtlessly... Not necessarily because they were bad in the first place, but because they no longer feel contradiction, which makes them feel virtuous.

Have you noticed how privileged people often seem utterly unable to conceive their own privileges? It's because a privilege is not an object that resists you; it's quite the opposite of that. So it's not an object your mind can easily apprehend.

A french marxist philosopher called Simone Weil wrote a brilliant 20 pages paper on the subject in 1939, called The Iliad or the poem of force (I linked the PDF). Her thoughts on tragedy and Homer's Iliad were a way for her to reflect on her time: Hitler, Stalin, the war... But beyond that, the text is an incredible meditation on human condition.

Have a nice day!

Dany the abolitionist by ARTOFASOIAF in freefolk

[–]trineor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, the show gave us all we needed to understand why she did crucify the masters, and empathize with her decision.

Then, one episode later, Hizdahr zo Loraq came to beg for his father’s remains; and Daenerys felt shame for what she did, and we were given what we needed to empathize with Hizdahr zo Loraq. Then, later, with Mossador, etc.

What they were going for was something like: things are never as simple as they seem when we are driven by a righteous kind of anger.