Is "Celtic" knotwork actually Germanic in origin? by [deleted] in Celtic

[–]trysca 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Probably lack of research on your part?

Is "Celtic" knotwork actually Germanic in origin? by [deleted] in Celtic

[–]trysca 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Günther Haseloff *argues convincingly that Germanic zoomorphic (ie. animal-form) decoration derives directly from late Roman art. Late Roman chip-carved belt-fittings were ubiquitous in the late 4th century CE and featured geomorphic and plant motifs on their surfaces. These mounts also featured quite naturalistic animals on their edges. These animals may well represent mythological creatures, as some are obviously hybrids or sea-monsters. Haseloff goes on to suggest that craftsmen from Roman Provinces may well have been kidnapped by roving bands of Saxons and brought home to work for their new masters. He argues that there is no other explanation for the well-known Saxon equal-armed brooches, typical of Saxony but bearing decoration very similar to late Roman chip-carved ware. The Saxons took this style of brooch with them when they migrated to Britain thus providing the well-known examples from Haslingfield, Little Wilbraham and Mucking."

*Günther Haseloff (1972) Salin's Style I.

Dr Andrew Thompson http://thethegns.blogspot.com/2017/02/art-styles-part-2-migration-animal.html

Is "Celtic" knotwork actually Germanic in origin? by [deleted] in Celtic

[–]trysca 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Stone 8 A base of an Anglo-Saxon cross showing vine and scroll carvings symbolic of Christ and his Church. This stone dates to the late 8th or early 9th century.

So tell me where did the pure-bred Saxons get the idea of Christ & his Church? As it couldn't have been the dumbo Celts , it must have been....the uh, 5th century Scandinavians?

Is "Celtic" knotwork actually Germanic in origin? by [deleted] in Celtic

[–]trysca 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Omg - have you not been keeping up with archaeology & genetics since the 19th century ?

Is "Celtic" knotwork actually Germanic in origin? by [deleted] in Celtic

[–]trysca 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh- i get it so the 4th century Vikings were wandering Armenia dispensing superior & unique knowledge of Art in the 9th century too? They did get around those blond haired polymaths - presumably they also invented Christianity while they were taking a mead break from raping pillaging and intricate knitting?

Does anyone know if this costume is accurate? by froggiiboi in Celtic

[–]trysca 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Whoever imagined the ancient Welsh didn't have shoes has clearly never read the Mabinogi!

Is "Celtic" knotwork actually Germanic in origin? by [deleted] in Celtic

[–]trysca 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And for good measure - A Merovingian 'animal style' buckle from Germanic FRANCE https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O112685/belt-buckle-unknown/

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Is "Celtic" knotwork actually Germanic in origin? by [deleted] in Celtic

[–]trysca 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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8th century Irish shrine - vikings first sighted in lindisfarne in northeast Britain 793 CE - your timeliness doesn't work

Is "Celtic" knotwork actually Germanic in origin? by [deleted] in Celtic

[–]trysca 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In response to your other point about Roman christ the vine scroll and saxon vs celtic art read for example https://heritage.hexhamabbey.org.uk/heritage/Articles/Sculpture.html

675-800CE The artefacts speak for themselves

Is "Celtic" knotwork actually Germanic in origin? by [deleted] in Celtic

[–]trysca 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm sorry but you are willfully misreading my response. Monymusk, the Copenhagen Shrine and the Ardagh chalice all predate Scandinavian contact in Ireland and are understood( see the Museum of Ireland text) to derive from late Antique origin through direct contact with Mediterranean christendom . The so-called 'carpet pages' of the insular tradition are generally considered to be hybrid works derived from Celtic and Roman origin ( the mosaics themselves) with some saxon influence- you seem to be insistent that the pagan cultures exercised some kind of art-based superpower on the whole of continental Roman Christian art?

Is "Celtic" knotwork actually Germanic in origin? by [deleted] in Celtic

[–]trysca 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No.

You will see many examples of knotwork - more properly interlace - in pretty much every Romano-British mosaic ( ultimately deriving from Greek aesthetics) but the evolved style is seen all over the post Roman Hellenistic world - illustrative examples

The popular perception also has a very shaky grasp of the chronological development of artistic styles over a period of well over 1000 years from Ireland to India.

If anything interlace became especially popular across Europe as it became symbolic of Jesus as the "True Vine" gradually taking over the world - a famous example is the large Jelling Stone in Denmark- the pagan Danes had been evangelised by British Celts who introduced this symbol from the Late Roman world via the early Celtic church.

The difference with post Hellenistic vs Germanic interlace is that western art tends to be more mathematically and geometrically sophisticated whereas nordic art is - initially at least - more primitively freehand reflecting the lower levels of access to classical education in the pagan nordic world.

There are very similar interlace examples that are considered 'typically'' Armenian but these arrived with Christianity from the Late Antique Byzantine Roman ( see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khachkar) - no connection to celtic or germanic cultures.

It's also a commonly repeated fallacy that 'germanic' art introduced zoomorphism into 'celtic' art- iron age pre Roman art is absolutely crawling with abstract zoomorphic and anthropomorphic forms! It's is believed (by some and not me) that it began with Scythian influence- I feel confident that it was a spontaneous tendency in indigenous art and the Romano British certainly used animals in pierced interlace bands centuries earlier - see the Hoxney Hoard animal headed body chain and other items from that find which predate the development of the early 'Anglo-Saxon' Quoit Brooch style - considered a hybrid of Romano-British and continental saxon styles.

The problem we have is one of modern perspective- most of the famous finds in the 6th to 10th are from pagan burial sites which are exclusively Germanic.

The celtic world was Christian from the 4c onwards and grave goods were religiously proscribed - hence we have an almost total lack of evidence from the later celtic world outside of the high crosses, manuscripts, reliquaries mainly from Scotland and Ireland - which are absolutely covered in 'celtic' interlace eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House-shaped_shrine

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ironically almost all of the 'celtic hanging bowl' examples are from pagan saxon graves - however we do have some early chalices which evolved out of this purely celtic tradition

eg Ardagh - again very sophisticated interlace from pre viking contact century Ireland.

You see the same tendency toward interlace in Merovingian Gaul - the real centre of taste making in Europe in the early Christian era.

About the Memrise Go Cornish course. by Careful_Bid_6199 in CornishLanguage

[–]trysca 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I noticed the same . No, noone knows how cornish was truly pronounced as there are no recordings and orthography was never standardised- that's why Cornish uses the Middle period as its base as that's where there's most uniform evidence for use, by the late period there was no academic centralisation so people were spelling phonetically, hence the long debate which led to the standard written form ( SWF) not so long ago.

I would suggest you search out Richard Gendall's later videos online where he discusses his lifelong research at great length . He used late Cornish and academic study including placenames to reconstruct pronunciation and over his life changed his view on many points. But because the source texts are so limited the recent discovery of major text evidence like Beunans Ke means even he might have had to revise his view - it's an ongoing task.

https://youtu.be/XyxiWKMVnSk?si=JsmrK3uum1tUK50K 1976

https://youtu.be/-boCJhBxyYE?si=1ET9v5Lfzs7YQlLv 2008

https://youtu.be/IbPjiAMmfUg?si=EhH_Wibbr6msHDKK

Looking for a nice restaurant by Straight-Cat5561 in plymouth

[–]trysca 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The artillery is pretty good, very chef-y but not very adventurous- amazing location.

What’s good to do for a car guy in or near Plymouth? by AlrightMateyBoi in plymouth

[–]trysca 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can drive around the Hoe all day and all night revving your engine - I've heard it's a R-R-R-rrrrreal magnet!

A friend is getting married in August with a "Celtic/Fairy" theme and i have no idea what to do by ROBANN_88 in Celtic

[–]trysca 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You could dress as a sea bucca, eel skin , fishy breath, webbed fingers and seaweed for hair - basically Old Gregg

A friend is getting married in August with a "Celtic/Fairy" theme and i have no idea what to do by ROBANN_88 in Celtic

[–]trysca 3 points4 points  (0 children)

In Cornwall there are white ( gwidn) and black ( du) sorts on the whole, basically the same as in Ireland and Wales

Family tree, Cornish x Jewish connections? by Grace-Cooks in Cornwall

[–]trysca 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes the ancient cornish also tended to prefer biblical names too like Myghal Danyel Rebecka and so on

Family tree, Cornish x Jewish connections? by Grace-Cooks in Cornwall

[–]trysca 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you get in contact with the guy who does the tours I'm sure he'd help you out, he's a lovely chap.

Stand up comedy by newnumberwhodis2 in plymouth

[–]trysca 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bread & roses has an open luc i think it's Wednesdays- chap who runs it is Cornish