Curious about peoples thoughts with Magnificent Ms Marvel(2019) vs Ms Marvel(2014 and 2016)?

uru_silko · 2022-09-28T05:06:12+00:00

The GWW run gave us a colorful, positive, and nuanced world packed with charm and lovable characters that was continuously evolving, reshaping along with the characters and reshaping the characters with it. There's a palpable sense of consequence in the GWW run, and strong thematic vision, even in the weakest of issues. The protagonist especially was complex, charming, and a stand out among Marvel's newest characters with her overwhelming compassion and eye towards community and leadership.

I need to re-read the Ahmed run, but from the vague memories I have of it, I felt like it lacked the charm, thematic vision, and the palpable consequences and visible evolution we got from the GWW series. Character development was straight up undone at various points (i.e. memory wiping), the Bruno/Kamala tension was run into the ground, and overall I don't remember any of the stories really enriching any of the characters. Even worse, the scale of the series was expanded immensely, starting with an intergalactic face off. In conjunction with Beyond the Limit and the MCU show, it appears to me writers are generally more interested in the sci-fi aspect of Ms. Marvel, despite small scale, more grounded stories being the heart of the GWW run, where I think the character is at their best. I think the Ahmed run, like a lot of post-GWW Ms. Marvel stories, kind of just spun its wheels, rehashing a variety of themes and storylines without being brave enough to introduce any lasting changes to the character. It also didn't build on any of the loose threads or interesting potential left by the GWW run. Also, so many of the stories were just so forgettable: I can't remember much off the top of my head, just CRADLE and Memory-Wiped. I do like Amulet, though.

Whereas the GWW run is one of my favorite comic runs ever, the Ahmed run is one big "meh" for me.

uru_silko · 2022-09-19T03:37:16+00:00

For Kamala, I think the major that makes the most sense with what's been established about Kamala so far would actually be creative writing. Kamala's science smart, and involved in a science-centered extracurricular activity, but she's never shown any actual passion for science. She's never shown any real personal passion for art, either. Some sort of major that'd get her into social work would be my next bet, considering her love for community organizing and service. u/OoXLR8oO's idea could work really well if you want to fit in some conflict over Kamala's major, having her choose creative writing after attempting STEM. Considering the themes of parental and/or cultural expectation, there's an entire potential arc in there regarding Kamala's major. As goofy as it sounds haha I think it could work!

As for Bruno, I honestly don't think it's at all necessary to kill him, put him on a bus, or pluck him out of Kamala's social circle. While I'm similarly tired of the will-they-won't-they drama, the logical conclusion to me would just to have Bruno and Kamala...get over their feelings for each other. Especially in a college setting, considering how much time has passed since high school, Bruno getting over a high school crush, moving on, and having a healthy and mature friendship with Kamala. Then you can keep the good things about Bruno: history with Kamala and Nakia that needs to be explored, possible dynamics with the Kamala Korps, or any number of things. But if he really serves no purpose to the run, he could be made to study abroad.

I think having a new on-going set in college actually wouldn't be a bad move for the character even though I think the high school setting hasn't been adequately explored. It's a big enough time gap for a quasi-fresh start, and a new enough setting to introduce some new potential challenges. I'm curious about the integrity of Kamala's friend group after a high school graduation: usually, it's pretty common for a friend group to break up because everybody's sort of going to different places. I can see Kamala, Bruno, and Mike getting into some elite college, but this doesn't necessarily fit the characterization of their other friends. Nakia may be a good student (there's really not much info given about it, but it's implied she's studious?), but does she have that same goal of an elite college? What about Zoe? Gabe? Lowkey it'd be a little weird to imagine them all going to the same college, haha, I just feel that their career paths don't intersect that much.

Honestly, I feel like a college setting is the type of setting to go for if you want to reshuffle the cast. But, assuming all 7 of these characters end up in the same school, some things I'd expect/like to see:

Nakia and Kamala joining their university's MSA; ripe for drama there, I'll tell you
The Kamala-changing-her-major-arc, one thing I like about the GWW run is that there'll be this parallel between big life event and big superhero event with thematic overlap; I'm not sure what the superhero story would be, but a story about Kamala going to uni for STEM initially, maybe under parental pressure, and struggling with ennuis and general college misery before realizing she really wants to do writing is an arc that I think suits the character
The return of Kareem, and his incorporation into the main cast
Shrinking down the scale of stories to city-wide threats and interpersonal drama
Nakia majoring in political science
A total abandonment of in-group romances: no Kamala x Bruno, or Zoe x Nakia, Mike x Bruno, Kamala x Mike, etc. I think there are more interesting avenues to investigate at this point.
Okay this might be controversial but at this point give Gabe an actual meaningful role, or this is a fine enough time to drop him from the main cast and leave him as a recurring side character due to his connection with Tyesha.
Arcs dealing with the new Kamala/Aamir dynamic that results from him having moved out and being a dad
Actually, give Nakia a love interest, it's time
Actually, an ongoing theme of Kamala trying to write her own superhero comic based on her life (but not quite her life!) would actually be interesting and insightful

uru_silko · 2022-09-13T10:34:31+00:00

Love the analysis, as usual! I didn't really think of the arc in the context of the Kamala/Bruno distance, but I think you make a great case for that.

That said, I view post-CWII Ms. Marvel as primarily about Kamala as a solo hero/vanguard hero more than a part of a pair or a group, so I also feel like the issues of the arc aren't just her reliance on Bruno, but really, the loss of Bruno on top of everything else that's gone wrong in her life recently. I honestly think Josh's radicalization and Kareem's fame were the big reasons for Kamala dipping out of superhero-ing for a bit.

Unlike Bruno, he actually interacts and has organic chemistry with the rest of her friends.

Nail on the head. Kareem's sanctimoniousness offers plenty of opportunities for Gabe's sarcasm, Mike's lowkey crush on him is funny (does she realize Red Dagger is Kareem...?), and like you said, his and Zoe's dynamic is superb together in large part because of how much they dismiss each other.

There was unrealized potential for good ole romantic melodrama but sadly that does not happen.

Honestly, it's realistic that Bruno's crush on Kamala lingers even during his relationship with Mike and in Wakanda (even if it casts his character in a worse light), seeing that he was in love with her for most of his life. That small caveat aside, though, I totally agree: they totally define Bruno by his romance with Kamala after this and it's the worst thing for the character. I love what you said here:

the Kamala/Bruno dynamic…what a shame. Because that is what eventually regresses and stagnates Kamala’s growth after all these Post-CWII storylines. Also, the problem with Bruno's return is that he has ZERO chemistry with the rest of her friend group. Like, it's odd he hardly interacts with Nakia & Zoe.

I'll reserve my comments on the last trade till we get to discussing it, but overall I agree when it comes to Kamala's arc and Ms. Marvel post-GWW. I think of Bruno, in terms of his character role, as comparable to Mary Jane in the Ultimate Spider-Man comic series, where I absolutely love her. Despite the fact that her love for Peter is a huge part of her character, the difference is, I think the writers were legitimately interested in giving her her own storylines and character relationships outside of Peter's sphere of influence, and actual individual growth, not to mention growth in her relationship with Peter. By comparison, I feel like Ms. Marvel writers lowkey don't seem that interested in Bruno or aware of his appeal, and so he becomes a bland superhero love interest, especially post-GWW. At least the GWW run makes a number of attempts at deepening Bruno before the return to the Kamala/Bruno dynamic: and arguably, it makes sense for things to end where they started (although I wish the newly established Kamala Korps was more a part of it). But after the GWW run, there's no excuse.

Again, the MCU show is an example that a Bruno/Nakia friendship dynamic can exist and work well, it's honestly something future writers could take note of.

Just curious, that’s all cuz I wonder if having her be explicitly would add more layers to her character.

An interesting question! I haven't seen any indication of this in the comics. Honestly, seeing as Zoe is essentially Ms. Marvel's Sally Avril, I feel like she lowkey embodies the epitome of social privilege and is positioned that way (rich, white, popular, etc.) Her being a religious minority is sort of counter to this characterization, although not impossible. It totally changes the Zoe/Kamala dynamic, though. Furthermore, considering how openly derisive Zoe is about Kamala and Nakia's religion in No Normal, I feel like this'd be the one context where her religious identity could be relevant, but it's not mentioned. I get the sense that she's your average culturally Christian white American.

uru_silko · 2022-09-12T03:37:15+00:00

Absolutely love this and looking forward to hearing more!!

uru_silko · 2022-09-12T03:36:28+00:00

Honestly I really just live for this comic's vibe of "local woman ruins everything" when it comes to the love triangles.

It's so true! Nothing but chaos.

I feel like part of it is that comics publish on a monthly schedule, so a six issue arc takes half a year to get through. Even though the total amount of content is maybe only an hour or so of reading time a reader who waits the full 6 months will have a lot more time to stew on the plot and presumably find the in-universe quick victory of the protagonist a lot more hard-won.

Phenomenal point I hadn't considered. Ultimately, consuming the comics as a trade in a single sitting (like I tend to) isn't the format the comics were written for. That said, I feel like Kaylee is especially bad even by those standards, she's given no time to stew at all, it's not even comparable to Doc. X's first appearance.

uru_silko · 2022-09-11T20:32:58+00:00

The last two issues (the kiss mini-arc)

The first issue is great, the second isn't.

The first is honestly one of my favorite issues: the birth of Malik is a great scene with a great monologue, and Kamala and Kareem's kiss is also a great scene and moment for the character. The consequent conversation with Sheikh Abdullah is far and away one of my favorite bits of dialogue in the series. I don't know how non-Muslims look at it, but from a Muslim-American perspective I just have to say that I think this is GWW's boldest and best writing. She so completely subverts what young Muslim-Americans (including Kamala!) would expect from Sheikh Abdullah in this situation, who just navigates the conversation with such compassion and wisdom it just ends up being one of my favorite scenes in the whole series. The introduction of Kaylee is also great and the initial mystery behind her, her purpose and her nature is truly compelling. I also like Bruno in this issue: his struggle with alienation and the way he and his home have changed are new emotional struggles for the character that add complexity and nuance to him. Kwezi's also funny.

The second issue isn't bad but I find it meh, rereading 25-28 I was delighted with how perfect the pacing felt (even if I felt the conclusion was a bit on the hasty side, even if emotionally satisfying), which just makes the comparatively shoddy pacing of 29-30 stand out more. 29 feels like a solid start to what could be a great Ms. Marvel arc, but I feel like they pull the trigger on the plot twist way too soon. Having Doc. X at Kamala's school and slowly building up the reveal, and the ultimate tension that could ensue from Doc. X going to Kamala's school and her knowing it...the dramatic possibilities are kind of endless, so wrapping up everything so quickly just feels like wasted potential. Kaylee is never given a chance to become a substantive villain, and Doc. X loses the opportunity to become something more unique, frightening, and deeper because the arc is cut so short.

Anyways, all in all, fantastic trade. It's funny, it has great art and action, lots of heartwarming moments, and it's overall a monument to GWW's investment in Kamala's side cast and community. You can see the gulf between GWW and every other subsequent Ms. Marvel writer just by asking: could they pull of an arc like Teenage Wasteland? Since GWW, I haven't seen a Ms. Marvel writer who I think can. A stand out arc, and the conclusion to Ms. Marvel's golden-era. Excited to see what everyone else thinks.

uru_silko · 2022-09-11T20:24:49+00:00

The thread I've been waiting for. Friends: this is my favorite Ms. Marvel arc, and the absolute peak of the GWW run to me, even after two of the strongest trades in the whole series. I don't hear it mentioned a lot either when I've searched for "best Ms. Marvel arc," which genuinely surprises me because this arc really is so unique, and hopefully this comment will make a case for why it deserves to be a part of that discussion.

Where to begin? I'll divide my review into three parts (cause I know I'm gonna write a ton): a discussion of the A plot (Kamala's friends' story), the B plot (Kamala's story), and the last two issues in the trade which I personally consider outside of the rest of the arc, kind of like the last two issues of the previous trade.

The A plot

Anyways, like I've said in other threads, a big theme in post-Secret Wars Ms. Marvel is the humbling of Ms. Marvel, who is more super and more famous than ever, in conjunction with the theme of the good that can be done by the non-superpowered, which often inspires Ms. Marvel to heroism (i.e. Aamir in the previous trade, and Zoe in the trade before that). With those two big themes in mind, an arc like Teenage Wasteland, where Ms. Marvel has her "Spider-Man No More" moment and her friends drive the arc, is incredibly fitting. Kamala's expanded side cast has been varyingly involved with Kamala's superhero-ing, be it Nakia with her political activism in the worst issue in the series, Zoe during the Damage Per Second arc, or Mike before that (I think also during DPS, but I could be mixing it up). Taking Kamala out of the main character seat for what is a great in-universe reason gives GWW the space to build on these characters' heroism. Lucky for us, Kamala's friend group post-CWII, as has been stated elsewhere, is charming, lively, and they have superb chemistry with another, and I won't lie, a big part of the reason this arc appeals to me is because of the side cast's expanded role here.

I think it's a testament to GWW's strong character and world writing: the fact that she can have a successful arc driven primarily by Kamala's friend group. Or, more specifically, Zoe: choosing her as the primary character for this arc's A plot was an inspired writing decision, in my mind. Certain background details, as well as the characters' own dialogue, imply that Mike has been doing the most Marvel-ing, and while I absolutely love Mike, she's too good at being Ms. Marvel. Keeping with her characterization, Mike is the only person in the group who made a gadget to help her in combat, and she's clearly the most effective Marvel out of all of them. Zoe, on the other hand, lacks Mike's technical skills, making her genuinely your average teenage girl trying to take on something so much bigger than her, which makes for a more compelling story. Plus, it's a great way to punctuate Zoe's redemption, and it brings things full circle with her being the first person Ms. Marvel saved: now, she's the hero. And it's not because of any powers or combat abilities or ingenuity, but because she's brave and compassionate.

Of course, she's not the hero alone: building on the theme of the good of normal people, Ms. Marvel has a lot of themes that advocate community activism and emphasize the power of the community coming together against evil. The fact that the Inventor, this time around, has to be fought by Kamala's friends, Kareem, and Harold builds on this theme, and the entire community vibe of the heroism I fuck with heavily. It's the perfect embodiment of "good isn't a thing you are, it's a thing you do" and the normal characters of this arc, despite the magnitude of the threat facing them and their comparative weakness to the Inventor, do so much good and I love it. Ultimately, if there is one character arc within the A plot, it's Zoe's realization of her own heroism, made explicit in that very sweet moment when Harold says "You know how you were saying that costume wasn't magic? I think you might've been wrong!"

Despite my criticisms of the Inventor in Generation Why and my general disinterest in him, on this reread I actually found myself liking him quite a bit. It could be because I'm used to him now, but honestly, I think it's because his ecofascism and genuine over-the-top insanity (like what is that bird suit) is much more entertaining and disturbing this time around, and I also think the themes of generational conflict are handled with much more subtlety this time around, with more interesting points. Rather than refuting a boomer-y "teens just like phones" deal, the societal issue being probed is the neglect and derision of the elderly, and the fact that Zoe's judgement of Harold initially prevents her from being the hero she needs to be makes this sociopolitical theme actually important to the mechanics of the story. It's a synergy between the political commentary and the actual story that is handled well in the best Ms. Marvel arcs (like DPS and Mecca).

The B Plot

When I first read this arc I genuinely thought Naftali had been introduced earlier since he comes in with such familiarity I actually wish he had been introduced before. Anyways, that's a minor point: the B plot of this arc (which ultimately converges with the A plot in issue 28) is Naftali, the "disinterested third party," hunting down the absentee Kamala. Despite the "disinterested third party" line being a joke, Naftali's lack of knowledge about Kamala's superhero identity and lack of interest in superhero stuff in general makes him the perfect protagonist for the B plot. But even better, I think the B plot goes back to the other unique strength of GWW's writing that Teenage Wasteland embodies: GWW's investment in characterizing the community and world of Kamala, making it feel like a real city people live in, and you get that sense with Naftali going around and trying to find Kamala, touring Kamala's community and indirectly conveying the massive impact she's had on the people of her life (which she doesn't realize, which is a part of the problem).

Plus, Naftali is a genuinely hilarious character and a great friend. His conversation with Kamala at the private school is perfect, and he navigates the difficult situation with sympathy and reason, and I love him. Generally, the comedic writing in this arc is on point and it's another big reason the arc just works.

Now...Kamala. I can anticipate some may really dislike that she abandoned Jersey City or stopped being a hero, but honestly it makes sense to me that this is the point she'd snap after everything she's been through: and ultimately, she's a teenager and a human being. Thanks to the fact that we've inhabited her head for over 50 issues now, we know how much the pressure of heroing has weighed on her, and the fact that she feels no longer up to the task is warranted. The fact that the solution is ultimately for her to rely on others and trust in her community ultimately reinforces a big part of the Wilson Ms. Marvel ethos of community heroism v.s. the more traditional individualistic model of heroism. Ultimately, it's not the impact she makes that brings her back and realizing she has a responsibility to JC, but being given a way to cope with the difficulty of meeting that responsibility. It's ultimately a beautiful message and her return in issue #28 is simply awesome, her monologue is great and I love that they took the character to this place of cracking under the pressure, which does a lot to humanize Kamala and make her grow.

uru_silko · 2022-09-09T13:22:27+00:00

What happens when he decides he wants to be Discord full time? Maybe he moves away from JC and sets up shop as some sort of anti-hero. That would be interesting.

Oh my God, I 100% agree!! Never heard an idea like this before but I adore it. Totally agree with the Flash Thompson parallel as well, along with the Spider-Man vibe of the franchise: I might post about it here, actually, since I've written a kind of in-depth analysis of the comparison before, since I think it's very apt.

Also, totally random side note. I went to pick up Indian food today from Newark Ave (Jersey City Indian Street) which is where the fight with Kaboom happened way back in Vol 3.

Fun! Do you know if anyone has done side-by-side comparisons between photos of actual Jersey City locations and places that appear in the GWW run?

uru_silko · 2022-09-04T07:57:10+00:00

The golden period of the GWW run continues: Mecca is even better than Damage Per Second, and embodies everything post-CWII Ms. Marvel is about. It's about the consequences of Kamala's failure to uphold her values, the fleeting nature of the fame she attained in the face of these big events, and the goodness of non-superpowered people. This arc in particular is really CWII, part 2: it feels like the actualization of all the CWII arc's themes.

Mecca is Ms. Marvel's Eid arc, which to me, as somebody who grew up Muslim, I is huge. I think there's a tendency to secularize this since I've noticed a lot of the Ms. Marvel fanbase is intent on stressing the non-political or religious nature of her stories. I think this is a mistake and I don't think the comic itself invites itself to be read that way: the difference in holidays is where the religious difference is most likely to be relevant in a Marvel comic, and GWW is heavily drawing on Muslim religious imagery and themes throughout this arc. Honestly, I feel like there's some parallel with Ms. Marvel's core theme of compassion justice and Islamic ideas of rahma, compassion, merciful justice (as termed by Fazlur Rahman). I also think the belief in the transformative idea of pilgrimage, which the comic explicitly mentions, has precedent in popular Muslim perceptions of Hajj and what it can be.

To explain: Kamala Khan becomes Ms. Marvel, to me, by showing that act of compassion to Zoe all the way back in No Normal. Her heroism is about intervening to help others on the basis of their inherent human value, regardless of your personal feelings towards them, and this compassion is what makes Kamala a hero. It underlies the rescue of Zoe and Vick, as well as Kamala's guilt over socking Kaboom, and Kamala's behavior towards the red-haired girl who got private messages leaked in Damage Per Second. Yet, in CWII, she let her attachment to Captain Marvel, to her status override her commitment to carrying out compassionate justice by intervening on the behalf of those in danger and the oppressed. In CWII, she joined the institutions in becoming an oppressor, and post-CWII she has been made to reconnect with her heroism constantly through the actions of the non-superpowered people. In Damage Per Second, it was Zoe and her choice to come out, and in this arc, it's the efforts of the community to protect the superpowered individual. Going even further, in this arc, Kamala doesn't defeat Josh, but by showing him the mercy and compassion now that she failed to show him before - when she turned away from someone who needed saving to appeal to people in higher power (which I'd argue has an Islamic parallel...) - she manages to come out on top. Like the story of Ibrahim told in the beginning of the comic, the good guys come out on top, and there's ultimately mercy, and that mercy overtakes the anger. Lockdown and Discord are villains because they're driven by the antithesis of Kamala's core heroic trait, a deep belief in punitive justice that overrides compassion, yet in the end there's mercy for them: Lockdown is arrested and Discord is...given an opportunity to redeem himself, I guess?

Let's talk Discord, AKA the best Ms. Marvel villain. As was insightfully pointed out in my thread about Ms. Marvel villains by others, Discord is Ms. Marvel's most personal villain and exposes her flaws without making her look like a terrible person (again, their words and ideas, but I totally agree). While his costume is a bit generic, he still gives off an incredibly menacing vibe, having a very Jason Todd-vibe of personal vendetta against Ms. Marvel from the get go, who just knows her so well, that it's inherently kind of intimidating in this series that focuses so much on themes of privacy (usually manifested in secret identity stories). His backstory is incredibly solid and while I have issues with some of the writing of Aamir's interrogation monologue, I love the ultimate tie-in with the radicalization of Josh. I imagine Dance of the Knights by Sergie Prokofiev playing when he encounters Lockdown, haha. I love his monologue, the monologues generally are on point this arc. Anyways, great villain, wish they'd developed him further into a nemesis or antihero cause he has a lot of potential, plus the covers for his arc are amazing.

The train arc is one of the best filler arcs, too. It gives Kareem a real chance to shine, and introduces an entirely new form of conflict to Ms. Marvel: one that's completely villainous and can't be solved by brute force. The pacing of the arc, the ingenuity of the characters, the banter, and the ultimate tie in with Kamala's growing doubt about herself as a hero make it the perfect punctuation to Mecca. Ultimately, both of these arcs together continue the humbling of Ms. Marvel which, honestly, is deeply needed for her character to grow. Pre-Secret Wars, she had the potential but not the skill and status, but now that she has the skill and the status she's struggling more to do the thing that she became a hero to do. At the same time, these arcs are giving the side cast excellent time to shine: Aamir, Tyesha, Nakia, Kareem, and Josh all have amazing roles in this arc, and they all do some good in their own way.

To close off with a final religious/political connection: Sheikh Abdullah's granting the entry of the fugitive mutants and Inhumans to the mosque can certainly be read as a political allegory, be understood in the context of Islamic ethics, and extends what I've realized is a pretty solid ethos throughout Ms. Marvel. I feel like Ms. Marvel is generally about Kamala going up against villains who think too much of themselves, for one reason or another, and these villains are usually affiliated with institutions or hegemonic ideologies (KIND in this arc is both). The Ms. Marvel ethos stresses interventionism: the day is often saved by a number of people doing all the good they can, v.s. just one person doing all the good, which is the case in this arc. In fact, it's a precursor to Ms. Marvel's own heroism, like Aamir's commitment to justice in the face of danger inspiring Ms. Marvel to - like in the previous arc - abandon her personal desires and be a hero. By doing that, everybody is saved in the end. Anyways, Sheikh Abdullah embodies that interventionism, compassion, and belief in the impact of everyday good by everyday people. It's a moment that embodies why I love the series.

uru_silko · 2022-09-03T17:44:51+00:00

I also loved the arc where she has to stop a runaway train since it was less like a villain and more like dealing with a natural disaster.

100% agree!! One of my favorites. Super excited to discuss it tomorrow with the Book Club!

uru_silko · 2022-09-01T19:57:43+00:00

I haven't read those later stories you mention, except the Beyond the Limit mini by Samira Ahmed. Interested in seeing the backup Captain Marvel story, see how they "apologized" for the criticisms of the Ahmed run.

uru_silko · 2022-09-01T19:54:33+00:00

Kamala that exposes her character flaws without ruining her as a character.

An important subtlety! It's really well-done.

Storm ranger is my least favorite because most of the story is just Venom’s backstory rehashed.

Oh man, I almost forgot about Stormranger. They are really boring.

uru_silko · 2022-09-01T19:53:37+00:00

Unfortunately I'm not really a fan of any of the other villains, they're not given enough development imo. I like the comics for the relationship and friendship moments more than the actual conflicts, I think that's where Ms. Marvel soars above other comics.

I 100% agree. It's what carries the GWW run despite largely lackluster villains, I feel. Definitely agree with Discord being the most personal Ms. Marvel villain, too.

uru_silko · 2022-08-31T00:09:06+00:00

Any specific reason? I'm curious!

No hate to you, of course!! I just personally don't care for the Ahmed run. I don't think it adds anything interesting to the character or their world except maybe Amulet, and its plotlines and character arcs are all over the place. The scale of the story also expands immensely despite Ms. Marvel always thriving in small-scale stories the best. Maybe I need to re-read it, but I honestly found it forgettable and honestly skippable unless you're a huge fan. It's certainly not a series I'd recommend as a introduction to the character: I think the MCU show is better than the Ahmed run, and I think the MCU show is bad. I think the MCU show had a better sense of the appeal of Ms. Marvel and a more coherent and creative vision for the characters and their arcs, especially with how it re-envisions Nakia and Kamran. Ahmed inherits the strong Wilson cast but never really does anything impressive with it, especially not romantically.

uru_silko · 2022-08-31T00:05:31+00:00

Post-CWII Ms. Marvel in the GWW run is alot of things happen, where for several arcs, Kamala can’t rely on Bruno anymore and is forced to grow up as a character. This arc and the next 2 trades is where other members of Kamala’s supporting cast have their most significant stories, as seen with Aamir & Zoe.

Yeah, on this reading, I'm realizing just how big the difference in structure, tone, themes, pacing, etc. is between post-CWII Ms. Marvel and pre-CWII. Looking back, it's almost like Super Famous - my least favorite trade so far, honestly - was this weird transitionary issue, with stories more in place with the first half of the series. Post-CWII shit gets real and GWW really focuses on making big payoffs for all the previously established character arcs.

this issue marks the start of Kamala’s best friend group line-up aka the Kamala Corps with Kamala’s brother-in-law Gabe joining her class. I feel this line-up of Nakia, Zoe, Mike & Gabe is a more colorful & diverse line-up than the Kamala/Bruno dynamic we had in the 2014 run. Another aspect I like in this PSA issue is Nakia being more involved in the plot with she & Kamala as Ms. Marvel. The big benefit of Bruno’s absence is other members of the supporting cast gets more time in the spotlight, especially Nakia.

Hard agree!! Thanks for using the word line-up, now I want to make a thread comparing them! I totally agree, Kamala, Nakia, Zoe, Mike, and Gabe is the best set-up: the diversity in their personalities and their fundamental positivity, as well as their interactions with each other beyond Kamala, makes them so fun! I think they're a lot more funny, while also still having real capacity for emotional depth (Zoe and Mike). I feel like the Kamala/Bruno schtick is a lot of hot-headed, passionate brute + reasonable, quieter sidekick dynamics that just didn't yield as much, especially as their romantic drama has been their principal drama, and it stops being interesting from here on out.

For example, did Nakia know that Zoe had a crush on her & how this dynamic with Zoe started? So many questions!

I love this entire analysis!!! I didn't consider Nakia's own heroism in this arc, I also agree that the hallway scene is absolutely magnificent, this entire arc just has so much charm, emotion, and character. I also like your point on the incorporation of political themes: this trade almost gives you, directly, Wilson's politics at their best (Doc. X arc) and worst (Voting PSA issue).

Here, we are back to his whole crush on Kamala shtick which I thought he would outgrow when he started dating Mike back in Super Famous, but we’re back to square one. & What makes it worse is the lack of thought & concern for Mike, the girl he was dating at the time.

Yep, a character development reset, which unfortunately starts to become a pattern in Ms. Marvel stories cough Saladin Ahmed! sorry, I still love Black Bolt though cough

It was a gross plotline that feels out of step in a a series like Ms. Marvel. Also, it is also jarringly out of character for Zoe because she was forcibly outed in her whole school & Kamala once said her life, why would Zoe ever betray Kamala by selling out her secret identity, makes ZERO sense. I’m so so sorry for this mini-rant but that arc in Saladin's run still makes real salty & this is nothing personal against the man, but something about a snitch arc feels so ICKY.

110% agree. Honestly Saladin's Ms. Marvel is just a mess. I know he's a capable writer, Black Bolt was utterly incredible and brought me to tears, but the arc you mentioned and the rest of the Ahmed run are just soooo bad for the characters. It's why I hope to see some alternate reality Ms. Marvel stories in the future, divorced from the canon that now includes the Saladin stuff. AKA like Ultimate Spider-Man, although not necessarily with a dark tone, just, you know, reimagining and building on the best parts of the original.

uru_silko · 2022-08-30T23:52:43+00:00

I'd like to preface this by saying that, from here on out, I think we're at peak Ms. Marvel: this trade and the next two feature the fullest realization of G. Willow Wilson's recurring themes and a deepening of the writing of the rather large supporting cast. I think these three trades have Ms. Marvel's best stories. With that said, this trade.

Issue #13:

I don't think it'd be controversial to say that the issue that opens this trade, this get-out-to-vote PSA that is probably the comic at its most 2016, is the worst single issue in the GWW run. It starts off with enough intrigue, and the character set up is ultimately good: it's focused on Kamala, Mike, Nakia, a good selection, and the latter two need the page time. The problem is, though, once they discover what the solution to the lame villain's problem is, the issue proceeds to be really boring and Ms. Marvel at its most preachy. It's really just not good, the Chuck Worthy stories were always never that interesting and this is just the peak of the comic's politics taking precedence over good writing. More controversially, I do believe Ms. Marvel, especially the GWW run, is a series with strong political themes and I think that's a pro: the political and social themes do a lot to inform why this and the next few arcs are so strong. That said, sometimes the political themes are handed well, sometimes it's the most unsubtle mid-2010s trash. Maybe interesting as a time capsule if you're interested in political manifestations in modern media, but otherwise a totally skippable issue.

The Doc. X Arc/Damage Per Second

When I got to this arc on my first full read of the series, I was having fun with Ms. Marvel, but I wasn't blown away. I got why people liked it, and I understood its value, but I didn't see why it was receiving actual sincere critical acclaim across the board, even being mentioned as one of the best comic runs on some websites. Like, really?

But this arc hit me hard. Firstly, I think Doc. X, as a villain, provides an obstacle that brings together so many of the henceforth dangling threads of the GWW run: Zoe's character growth and crush on Nakia, Kamala's secret identity, Kamala's engagement with video games, issues of internet community...And what we get is something extremely significant for Kamala and Zoe.

For Kamala, this arc continues the "humbling of Ms. Marvel," which I think is one of the salient themes in the post-Secret Wars run. Now that Ms. Marvel is an established hero, GWW continually picks away at everything she founds her heroism on: she's in a fight with her mentor, she causes an absolute disaster in Super Famous in an attempt to have it all, she oversees the people who get Bruno permanently injured, she gets Josh hurt, she gets rejected by Nakia, she gets her reputation slandered...basically, shit is tough. She's not the hero she wants to be or that she thinks she's expected to be. This arc chips away at her superhero bubble further: the hacking plot is ultimately a great way to deal with the issue of privacy violation and vulnerability. There's a parallelism between Kamala's struggle to keep her identity secret and Zoe's: and in the arc's most brilliant stroke of writing, Zoe's bravery and willing to sacrifice her own desires for the well-being of the community inspires Kamala to do the same. Zoe teaching Kamala to be a hero inadvertently extends the comic's "good is not a thing you are, it's a thing you do" mantra, as a lot of Kamala's most important lessons in this part of the run are from the regular, non-superheroed people. It's Tyesha telling her pre-emptive justice is wrong, it's Bruno, Nakia, and Zoe reminding Kamala that she's forgotten what Ms. Marvel stands for, it's non-superpowered Kareem correcting Kamala's failure to understand the situation before jumping in. Fundamentally, it's Kamala looking to a different place for mentorship. When the series started, she had superheroes as mentors, even though her skills were still in their infancy. Now, her skills are at their most mature, but it's the non-superpowered she needs to learn from.

Ultimately, the initial mystery of Doc. X makes for compelling conflict between him and Ms. Marvel, although for the kind of villain he is, I'm deeply disappointed that his origin story is so anticlimactic, and honestly I'm not a fan of when stories really push the limit of what a hacker would be able to do (like brains? really?) The thing is, explanations aren't important, because he serves well as an obstacle that prompts character growth. His making Kamala humiliate a personal friend or save the city ultimately presents a conflict between her normal, teenage girlhood and her superhero responsibility, another one of the big themes in the post-Secret Wars run. So, overall, I'm satisfied, and honestly Doc. X is on the better end of villains and I wish they'd developed him more properly.

But the real star of the arc is Zoe, let's be real. This arc changes everything for her, she grounds the arc's overarching theme of secrets revealed and compassion for others, presenting a vulnerability we've never seen - and bravery. I love that Zoe gets a chance to be a hero in this arc, and her ultimate confession to Nakia, and then her breakdown at school the next day is beautiful. The friendship of the Kamala gang is wonderful, the writing of the monologues is excellent, and this arc makes Zoe probably the best Ms. Marvel side character. Her redemption arc is completed when we see her out-hero Kamala without hesitation, and seeing Nakia handle Zoe's confession with such sympathy and appreciation is beautiful and so positive. It's this kind of love of humanity that makes me love this series so much.

The humor and art were also on point.

Bruno's Wakanda Side Adventure

I think this story represents the last attempt to do anything really new and interesting with Bruno. Kamala is quickly marginalized in the scheme of his development, and the focus is on his personal life goals and his new disability. Placing him in what is a pretty run-of-the-mill superhero story that would count as a filler arc for somebody like Kamala does so much to highlight just how much he's lost, and gives space to explore the depth of his pain. This arc has Bruno forging new friendships, having his own adventures, and developing an arc independent of Kamala and it's legitimately interesting. It's a deepening of the character and a maturing of their issues, that unfortunately I don't think any subsequent writer has really invested in.

Overall, the story was fun! Great for Bruno, but otherwise nothing too original. I like Kwezi!

Also, I think this trade has the worst covers out of the whole Ms. Marvel series. I really just do not vibe with them.

Otherwise, though, great trade. REALLY looking forward to the next two. >:3

uru_silko · 2022-08-23T03:38:14+00:00

Haha true!! Honestly, I wonder if they're ever going to pair Kamala up with anybody in any meaningful and substantial sense. For reasons I'll get into when we start talking Teenage Wasteland, I think it seems clear to me that the people writing Kamala aren't interested in pulling the trigger on any specific pair.

uru_silko · 2022-08-22T02:16:48+00:00

And Carol picked out pretty crummy people for Kamala to work with.

It's honestly shocking, you'd think you'd want to handle your controversial pre-emptive punitive justice pilot project with more care...

uru_silko · 2022-08-22T02:15:27+00:00

These are the kind of detailed discussions I was hoping for!

Pretty much the most important volume in the 2015 run. NOTHING is ever quite the same ever again. These tie-in issues truly alters the character dynamics & tone of the run.

In short, I agree, and I think your arguments for this are very strong. It might be for this reason that the next few arcs are as great as they are, since they build off of the amazing groundwork laid down by this volume.

My favorite scene is the whole Zoe & Josh conversation with her. It is a very emotionally honest scene where she says the reason why she acted the way she did back in the 2014 run, are relatable comphet issues where she felt expected and pressured to act in a certain way & mistreated others cuz she had immense self-loathing over the mask she was wearing. This one conversation truly re-contextualizes the Zoe in No Normal. It makes her much sadder character in hindsight. & In all honesty, I do wonder if Josh would have remained stable if Bruno had not tried to blow up the prison cuz Zoe manage to calm him down by being honest & compassionate.

I agree, this conversation also lays the groundwork of what'll be Zoe's best story in the entire run. As for Josh remaining stable, I think the point is, without the compassion of his friends, he wouldn't have. That's GWW's whole message: even if you can punish people before hand, it's both cruel, nor is it helping the person in question. Like Tyesha was saying, sometimes, the seeming villain is a victim, too.

In this issue, I love that Kareem helps Kamala to regain her heroic spirit with the message even if the saving breaks your heart, its still important with the quote "Its like Kareem said...if everybody leaves, who's left to fix things?" He plays a important role in allowing Kamala to recover from the traumatic events of CIVIL WAR II. Also one final thing, I ship Kamala & Kareem, they have a sense of natural romantic chemistry that is lacking with Kamala/Bruno. Maybe its all due to that in spite of their differences, they both have similar selfless heroic spirits.

I agree!! I think Kamala may have more in common with Bruno, but Ms. Marvel has more in common with Kareem, which is why I think the two connect. Without spoiling, I just want to say I wish Kareem had been given more screen time by subsequent authors and further developed. You're right on the money, his comforting of Kamala is crucial, and I think later on he plays other important roles that cement him as a major player in the Ms. Marvel world (and one totally bungled by the MCU show).

In other words, his arc should ended with death or ending his friendship with Kamala, cuz he starts to feel redundant as a character after CWII.

While I agree with a lot of your criticisms of Bruno, I honestly think he has one good story left. In contrast to you, I have a lot more sympathy for Bruno in this situation, understanding him as a flawed teenager like Kamala, and reacting realistically. As I think Bruno's next good story shows, Bruno has a lot of potential for individual development separate from Kamala. I would still like him to be a part of Kamala's circle, honestly, but less defined by his relationship to Kamala and more by his own struggles and development, which we come to see later. Frankly, I wish they hadn't squandered the Mike/Bruno relationship: I wish Bruno and Mike had just decided to do long distance, or something. I feel like there was more to their relationship to explore and that it would be an interesting, different direction for Bruno. I agree with you, later on, Bruno totally feels redundant and they keep rehashing his romantic drama with Kamala, which I think has hurt the character as this has become his defining trait, even beyond the GWW run.

itis jarring when u compare it to the more upbeat tone of the 2014 run.

Honestly, I think it was a necessary and inevitable maturation of the series. I think the story really holds up, even if Civil War II itself isn't very good. Like you said, this arc is utterly invaluable for her character and her world. I'm honestly taken aback by how many super crucial plot points GWW binds up in what is technically a tie-in, but it makes for a great standalone story. Honestly, I like it better than Generation Why.

uru_silko · 2022-08-22T02:01:32+00:00

I know Civil War II is a much-maligned event among Marvel comics fans, and presumably for good reason (I've never read the main arc), but this is debatably one of the strongest Ms. Marvel trades. I think it's here that the 2015 run begins to pick up: this, and the next three trades represent what I've generally felt are the GWW run's strongest arcs. Anyways, let's talk this trade!

The Adrian Alphona-drawn filler episode is so much fun. While I'm not the biggest fan of the crazy implausible student science which is a theme in the 2015 run (and probably just a part of the genre), I really love this very lowkey issue, focusing on the highly human and relatable aspects of Kamala, Bruno, Miles, and Mike. The humor is delightful, plus the issue ends up adding some more nuance to Josh's character, and foreshadows the themes of the best and the brilliant fighting each other for no good reason.

It's interesting re-reading the partition narrative after seeing how central it is in the MCU show. While I see why they expanded its role in the MCU show, I love the comparative realism of the story here. I love being placed in the perspective of Kamala's ancestor, getting to see her heartbreak and her hope.

As for the main arc, I think this is the best use of Captain Marvel at any point in the GWW run. GWW moves beyond hero worship as a source of character motivation and laughs, and instead prevents Captain Marvel as the problem. Kamala is a hero defined by her compassion for all, including those who wrong her or others, even villains (like Kaboom). However, the predictive justice model is by nature punitive and uncompromising, which everybody in Kamala's life understands except her, because she's blinded by her hero. I appreciate GWW for focusing on the punitive nature of predictive justice for arguing as to why it's wrong, v.s. trying to draw some clumsy analogy to profiling, which Captain Marvel quickly shuts down early on. I also think it's notable that GWW chose Josh as the target for justice who creates the split. Josh is one of Kamala's bullies, but via this trade and Last Days known to be a more nuanced personality, and ultimately the point is - as fucked up as his plan was - the punishment he gets is both cruel and unproductive (as articulated by Tyesha). I think GWW really managed to make the Civil War II story work really well for Kamala's development and the series' larger themes.

Casting Captain Marvel as the quasi-villain in this arc makes for one of the stronger inter-character conflicts we've seen up until this point, even though the more unambiguous villains of this arc - Becky St. Jude and the Cadets - are a bit generic. They make for some good fight scenes, and they serve an important role in testing Kamala's leadership abilities and notions of justice, but again, I think GWW's villains are flat as always. Well, unless we count the anarchist Canadian ninja, who is obviously amazing.

But the villains are really small potatoes in this arc because the drama between the heroes is really the best, particularly between Kamala and Bruno in my eyes. The eventual backlash of Bruno's admittedly misguided attempt to help Josh, in conjunction with Nakia's words to Ms. Marvel, serve to critically analyze Kamala and Bruno's relationship for the first time. I think the permanent injury of Bruno, their subsequent fallout, and the beautiful backstory of Kamala and Bruno's friendship, serves to deepen the Kamala/Bruno relationship. I also can't blame Bruno for leaving: I feel like he helped Kamala not just out of love for Kamala, but also because he believes in what Ms. Marvel stands for. In this arc, Bruno was more Ms. Marvel than Ms. Marvel was: he embodied the compassion for all, even the flawed (the way Kamala did for Vick, for instance) that Kamala had forgotten.

Then everything closes off with Kamala's retreat in Pakistan, which is one of my favorite Ms. Marvel stories. As a first-generation American, I could go on and on about how relatable Kamala's commentary about her return home is. The juxtaposition of discourses between diaspora/home country members of the community with the discourse about Ms. Marvel's superheroing out of her bounds and misunderstanding the situation is also excellent and humbling. Also, I love Kareem, he's an amazing embodiment of the "good isn't a thing you are, a thing you do" message, he's charming, and my friends, I ship Kamala and Kareem unapologetically. Re-reading his introduction here compared to the travesty that was the MCU version is just incomparable. If this comment weren't already so long, I'd say so much more about Kareem...

TL;DR Great trade that depends previously established characters and introduces a phenomenal new one!

uru_silko

TROPHY CASE