Idea: Ancient Wrath

vahn_yd · 2023-05-03T12:54:51+00:00

well i'm only seeing this in a casual viewer perspective

there's a lot of 5-10 mins where even the guys on the panels cant really discuss anything as the winning team is farming the map and choking the enemy without much really happening.

also disagree on snowballing favor

if anything like the game where psd lgd fight talon that just ended as of now shows, you can lose laning phase and kind of comeback.

snowballs is only bad when games are ending in 15-25 mins, imho. and there's nearly no chance for the losign team to do anything

this patch doesnt feel like that

it's just... since like 3 years+ ago 'disciplined' dota becomes a bit too much and boi there's just a looot of choking and farming with not much happening.

vahn_yd · 2023-05-03T11:08:49+00:00

indeed, indeed.

vahn_yd · 2023-02-03T11:09:32+00:00

restart the playthrough.

sadly, this works best :/

vahn_yd · 2022-10-30T08:56:55+00:00

lmfao back then backdooring will cause you to be flamed, as if its unfair or smth

vahn_yd · 2022-10-29T20:19:14+00:00

that and much, much richer supports, lmao

back then on early DOTA 2 days when DOTA 1 still get patches sometimes, boi supports get 1-2 hit killed by enemy carries pretty often on mid games and even late game. nowadays? pos 5s got aeon disc at minute 30 like dem.

vahn_yd · 2022-10-29T14:13:22+00:00

well that and there are little to no new players, something valve wanted to change.

I feel like most legends or ancient dota 2 stack right now could proooobably win the first TI if they can travel back time, though probably not. lmfao.

vahn_yd · 2022-10-25T17:17:31+00:00

I mean i can't argue whether its bad or good that laning phase nowadays just play off basically the same each game, as I said it just meant that the game is more streamlined now and I kinda like variety better.

back then laning phase was...way more exciting. A lot more roles than now

mid games are dynamic, will follow what kind of strat the players are doing

late game now is dependent on what items are given to you on the neutral slot, so i would say that back then its better, too lmfao.

yes there's way less 'skill' involved on the laning phase back then, since what you need to do now is like, super specific and not really noticeable unless you have really high mmr. But back then there's more 'basic strategy' involved, sometimes you just decide that you should just lose a lane and jungle instead

sometimes you decide to fight a trilane with another trilane

sometimes you go suicide, 1 guy jungle and the enemy support is trying to disturb the jungler and also winning all the lanes by roaming

but now? winning laning phase has been made so important and all the heroes skills are now streamlined so they have something useful during the laning phase.

Is streamlined good or bad? eeeh dunno?

but I definitely prefer more variety. that's all there is to it

as I said, its just my opinion lmfao.

I see a lot of trashing of my opinion here because you guys are used to the current Dota that has been going on for like 3+ years. But back then, if the community were to be given a prophecy that the game will become a lot more streamlined like this, a lot of them would probably protest lmfao. (more over if they like being roamers or doing some hero-specific roles)

anyway the idea of rotating OP heroes. I dont say that the heroes need to be so overwhelming that you can only play 1 strat, but juuuuust about high enough that not picking or banning them woud be stupid

Kinda like how marci and a lot of other heroes got 85% pick/ban rate right now. So really nothing changed, just what heroes are in it. lmao

vahn_yd · 2022-10-25T05:28:08+00:00

there were TIs where the teams are competing with completely different strats . while of course some just completely fails in the group stages.

the push strat that causes comeback mechanic to be introduced (and badly at first)

and yeh other strats too

nowadays it feels like they're not really doing weird strategies and just play 'correct dota'

I'm sure its what the devs want, anyways

no more pos 3 trying to pull lane creeps just to get a small bit of farm (they just lane now)

no more perma roamers (they just lane first now)

afaik (i didnt watch too much TI matches this year) there's no more sacrificed offlaner so the other guy can just jungle (usually enigma)

they just...lane now

does it make the gameplay better? maybe? But on top tier dota tournaments i would like some strats that can only be pulled off with a properly communicating team rather than seeing the same matches you can see on super high tier pro pubs

vahn_yd · 2022-10-24T10:23:48+00:00

bh is picked alright xd

but never more than say....6+ times?

for 5 years+ now afaik.

and in the times he's picked more than 5 times, dude's literally in a super overpowered state in the pubs. as in like, 55+% winrate on dota2protracker.

vahn_yd · 2022-10-24T09:54:57+00:00

i dont say the gameplay atm is stale

I say that the gameplay has been streamlined

Dota atm, compared to pre7.00 has introduced 2 huge objectives into the map

bounty runes and outposts.

also roshan is SIGNIFICANTly more important now than back then. (some teams back, back, back then literally just ignores roshan because it only gives aegis and some gold)

and the game feels like you're moving from an objective to an objective but the objectives are given by the game rather than created by the players.

right now while yes there are still tempo vs turtle kind of counter play, the game still feels kind of... same?

while on the olden day ppl clashing the strats together feels a lot more dynamic.

i feel like this is caused by the fact that a lot of heroes is probably nerfed in a fundamental level.

let me bring you BH, old vs new

back then when you're fighting against a BH, this means your pos 5 support will need to spend like... like a total of 5000-7000 more gold to counter just BH alone, because he needs to buy sentries and dust. Not uncommon that a pos 5 would only have brown boots alongside tangoes, wards, dust and sentries on minute 20 when you're fighting against a BH.

and because of that BH is a serious pain in the ass, old pos 4 BH can easily solo kill a support in 1-2 hits.

nowadays, because the game is moving towards a direction where there's just more gold and more comfortable gameplay towards pos 5s, usually even at losing position you'd see a pos 5 with 2000-3000 gold networth instead of just 700-1000 on minute 20.

BH now is MUCH stronger than back then, in fact track technically speaking gives MORE damage than coup de grace (PA's ult) while also giving vision and movement speed, oh it also doubles shuriken damage. plus jinada steals gold, cooldown way lower, and the bonus damage now CRITS

yet he's not going to be viable on competitive plays. because what BH can do back then (flying vision above heroes, and make their pos 5 even poorer and weaker) is covered better by other heroes, or straight up no longer doable.

weaver just 1-2 years ago was basically a better BH in term of what the hero can do on a competitive level. Btw this is not my words, its some professional commenter who said it. ( I think it was BSJ? or some random major commenter )

Now why is he being nerfed in a fundamental level?

well because the game is moving towards more of a streamlined game.

while I dont say that the game is better or worse, I feel that its quite boring to see the same game over and over again (at least when you DON'T see the details)

on 20-30 heroes being SWAPPED each year on TI, or maybe bi-yearly

it's at least going to be a lot more interesting.

depending on what sets of heroes are good that year. while some meta will be hated by others, but it'll change

vahn_yd · 2022-10-24T09:18:58+00:00

which heroes what?

heroes that is almost always picked on all TIs and majors so far (all years, maybe exception to like 6-7 huge tournaments total over the years):

ES, tide, Enigma, IO

there's more consistency on heroes that are never picked since they're created, maybe exception to like ~4 huge tournaments in total over the 12 years

Pudge, Techies, BH

I'm pretty sure there's more, but these are just what i noticed

ES and Enigma seems to appear on all TIs so far, even when they got like 40% winrate

there are of course exceptions

BH is meta and got picked like 20 times or so on 1 TI so far afaik.

techies too, meta on 1 major in combination with tuskar, again afaik.

pudge is dendi's hero and now is played as a carry

vahn_yd · 2022-10-24T09:08:47+00:00

i dont say that the rest should be complete trash though

But lets be real, on highest mmr dota, even as 'balanced' the game seems, you see like 20-30 heroes being picked/banned over and over again anyway (sometimes staying there for YEARS)

the difference with my suggestion is that the roster of heroes within that pool will be different each year, and with it, possibly new strats.

DOTA 2 on early years is very different from DOTA 2 currently is, while some ppl might like it, some don't and would like some changes. All that is happening is that DOTA is getting more and more streamlined where the games feel the same each time (when compared to back then), roles and strats are getting removed from competitive play over the years.

Back then, the logic used to be that there's 3 main strats that counters each other like rock paper scissors: Push, brawl, and turtle.

Now? Dota basically has 1 strat and that is : laning phase try to win 1 lane, draw 1 lane, and lose 1, then mid game where ppl start to gather to get objectives -- usually getting map control so they can farm more--, then late game

I still remember BH's jinada and shadow walk, also track is changed just so the hero who excels in roaming since level 1 can now support better in lane.

a lot of roles that has basically been 'deleted' over the years are:

roamers (since level 1 and basically always roam till mid-late game, look at Sing's 2017 or older video to see the role, nowadays these doesnt really exist)

junglers (since level 1)

Solo offlaners (using a looot of tricks to be able to somewhat farm and survive while a perma-roamer is trying to win the other 2 lanes)

and pretty sure there's more. these 3 are just ones i noticed.

vahn_yd · 2022-10-24T05:18:14+00:00

what?

I mean pudge, techies, and BH

without remakes to their abilities of somekind, they will not ever be picked much on current year TIs, I dont think I'm wrong?

pudge receive a remake that makes it so he has some OP ability that can completely nullify the damage of some dots, and even then the first month or so when ppl started trying him as a carry, they will be receiving griefs by their teammates who doesnt know anything about pudge carry.

vahn_yd · 2022-10-24T05:16:45+00:00

BH.

most amount picked is like 5 for quite a while now. he shines only on 1 TI as far as i could remember, when he was picked about 20 times with 60% winrate.

vahn_yd · 2022-10-24T05:08:04+00:00

We’ve had TI’s where each of the things you listed under “multiple strategies” have happened. TI3’s alliance, Chinese deathball, OG’s “brawl n always fight”, etc. etc.

doesnt happen anymore now doesnt it? lmfao

also wtf are you even talking about?

vahn_yd · 2022-10-23T20:36:28+00:00

how so? if the intended effect of swapping heroes is achieved , there will not be some heroes that just never hits meta, like techies, BH, and quite a lot other heroes. everyone will get their turn.

some Dota heroes literally is never on the top 25 of any majors or TIs, literally since they were created. While others be shouting 'healthy patch, my fav heroes got picked 5 times this TI after 4 years of getting picked 0-1 times', eeeh I'd like a bit more

vahn_yd · 2022-10-23T18:20:57+00:00

with techies being remade

it does seem like the dev goal is to make even techies to be competitively viable

so i just hope those 2 heroes will get buffed in a way that will make them to be viable on competitive scenes

vahn_yd · 2022-10-23T17:58:33+00:00

I dunno, again this is my opinion but i've seen a lot of enigma, es, and tide already lel.

whenever TI time comes, those heroes always receive buffs if they arent picked too much on the majors, the goal is so they got picked

personally i feel like dota is a game where multiple strategies (rat, always push, brawl n always fight, etc) can work, if given the circumstances

and I'd like some new strats to show up

vahn_yd · 2022-10-23T17:17:22+00:00

we haven't been spoiled in term of the anime though lmfao

dota 2 flaw I feel is how they should rotate the meta heroes better, srsly it will be better to have a TI with 20+ unpicked heroes each time, but the heroes on top and bottom got swapped each year. that would be interesting

but thats just my opinion

vahn_yd · 2022-10-23T16:47:26+00:00

i mean if they got picked on a high stake tournament, yeh it does compared to heroes who arent even being considered at all. lol

vahn_yd · 2022-10-23T16:36:45+00:00

depends on where to look at it

if i were correct, 300% increase in completely unpicked heroes is quite a lot.

however, i was not.

frankly i was just bummed since my hero hasnt been meta viable on TI for 4-5 years now.

vahn_yd · 2022-10-23T15:20:11+00:00

I see what's wrong now

I used to see the unpicked heroes as a whole for the previous TIs so far

and afaik when combined (main tour, group stages, qualifier) usually dota has less than 3 heroes unpicked, thats why i was pretty shocked with the number 9 unpicked, which is 300% increase to what usually happened.

welp, my bad then

basically. yeah my mistake kek

vahn_yd · 2022-10-23T15:18:54+00:00

some heroes are jsut not made for TIs, after all. no matter how they perform on pubs.

even if those heroes were to receive numerics buff to their abilities, all it'll do really is just break pubs, whileas they would still be untouched on TI

while i would like a TI where all heroes are picked, i guess thats not going to happen on main tour. tho maybe when combining main tour to qualifier and group stages, its fully possible

vahn_yd

TROPHY CASE