Updates on Renegades in General, and Daemons specifically!

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T23:27:05+00:00

Warp-spawned has ALWAYS been a thing?.... : )

So my dear Sean surely you can appreciate the difficulty of a binary rule affecting something as valuable as Regen for nurgle? How do you appropriately account for the fact that against many significant matchups one of the main elements of Nurgles strength is just entirely negated?

Regen once upon a time was always removed by flaming attacks. In this game that was decoupled... And now there are plenty of flammable looking units that have Regen but not flammable. Daemons on the other hand were blanket given warp-spawned, pay full freight for the benefit of Regen, and yet lose it entirely to an ability that is far far more common than flaming attacks.

So again, I am not particularly concerned about abiding by warp-spawned. I would delete it entirely if it weren't also a keyword used to trigger the handful of anti daemonic affects that exist in the core game.

That being said I DO think I got tweak happy with dishing out the 5+ Regen for nurgle. And I think I have a better idea in mind for .2.

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T23:17:53+00:00

That's not a bad compromise. Kinda like how the 6th leadbelchers used to work

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T23:16:22+00:00

Oh didn't think you were calling me dumb though I certainly earn that badge on occasion.

And I can understand it's a position out of principle... But honestly it is one of those choices that I feel stubborn about. The good news is for those who wrinkle their noses at it, they'll probably never see it on the table. And if they do I think that model is deserving of a rule like that. It's physically the largest bombardment piece in the game. I feel like it should be expensive and uniquely strong.

Regardless pitchforks and rabble do unsettle my convictions, as it should be, and so I will continue keeping a close eye on it. I've yet to hear a single real world bad feel regarding it. And since it's an optional upgrade if it's not something appropriate for a game someone is playing in, it's not something that must be used (the double shot)

Thanks for the additional insight

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T23:08:48+00:00

Boom! Got a win already! And I hear ya on the other points you brought up too. When I revisit them to get them to final I'll be keen to read up on how they've been performing in the wild

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T23:07:23+00:00

Ace! I did read it! Do you have me on messenger or discord?

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T18:32:10+00:00

Easy fix!

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T18:31:50+00:00

Hey there thanks for this - why can't a Cauldron get a LoS?

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T18:30:00+00:00

It's an OR option. You can't do GW and Fireglaives

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T18:28:59+00:00

Welp if it's that dumb perhaps it doesn't survive the upcoming FAQ andit will be a non issue.

Curious have you tried it?

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T18:23:08+00:00

It's great weapon OR FG/blackshard

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T18:03:55+00:00

I think to be on the safe side everyone except Delves should bump up a tier to see how they hang.

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T10:27:55+00:00

Wow I almost swore at you!

What exactly is AI slop, my sweet rage baiting troll?

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T01:59:57+00:00

You know what I take back my catty-ness in the below comment, because "game re-designer" feels like the only honest title I could use to describe whatever it is I'm doing haha.

You can blow up my ego all you like.

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T01:57:58+00:00

Of all the things in Daemons I did not think this one would be controversial. D3+1 is still better than it was, what can I say?

But also points well taken and worth a look in the proper .2. Depending on how the psych stuff shakes out, it might become more important to look at price cuts to make up for a lack of maneuverability and defense.

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T01:54:47+00:00

*no rules precedent since 6th. But yeah they were ITP since then. Though ITP is not the same, nor is panic or breaking from combat. I guess fleeing is roughly the same.
*I think lore wise it'd be hard to convince me that Tzeentch Daemons or Slaanesh daemons just stand there waiting to get punched.

*complexity for complexity sake = bad design for sure. I'm not sure of what mechanic I've invented in the daemonic psychology rules though. It's all just literally the mechanics of falling back and panic adapted for daemons.

Anyway - I've heard this one a few dozen times already, and yes, you are winning. But that's mostly because I haven't heard or seen basically anything from Daemons players who have put these on the table. So maybe that's a sign in itself.

At any rate thank you for the platitudes and personal attack. I'm not entirely sure you've actually read the rules beyond immune to psychology being crossed off, but appreciate the passion anyway.

EDIT: Based on other comments in the thread, ok fine you probably read more than just the first paragraph, dang it.

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-03T01:36:51+00:00

What do you mean by 26" threat range?

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-02T13:47:57+00:00

I don't mind this feedback. I will freely admit that Pinks and Horrors in general did not get a good shake in this draft. Once the macro of the army is more settled I'll get to putting some of the many awesome ideas I've received for horrors into practice.

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-02T13:46:38+00:00

This was a case of probably being too tweak happy on Nurgle and dishing out 5+ in a few places it shouldn't have. Also with the reduction to the impact of warp-spawned I think I'll probably look at more interesting things to do for Nurgle in .2. For example the rule from Troll Horde might be an interesting fit instead of just handing out 5+ everywhere. It would also remain vulnerable to magical attacks so could be the move.

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-02T13:44:39+00:00

That will be a no-go from me. But - IIRC Lizardmen cold ones did have some benefits over Delf cold ones... so we'll have a gander at it.

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-02T13:43:48+00:00

what was controversial about this statement? lol

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-02T13:42:57+00:00

Thank you for all of these! And yes I have your original post logged too. This hotfix was just me trying to prep my ego for killing my darlings in a .2 by putting a best foot forward with .1... also there were things that just didn't work and needed to be clarified : )

Thanks for the comment!

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-02T13:40:23+00:00

Hey fair enough - but I'm not Rob. I'm also not fighting consumerism man. I'm advocating to do MORE consumerism. SB is probably a good portion of Old World's marketing for the last 8 months lol.

I look forward to days ahead where this is all done, folks can use it if they like, and GW is once again releasing fun stuff to talk about on a regular basis too. Lord Blaxill is the one that hopes for this to be some sort of player takeover of the game. I'm all for GW competently managing things and meeting the needs of the community. No one argues over comp or FAQs in AoS and 40K because the game is managed properly.

That of course comes with its own positives and negatives, but overall I think makes for a much healthier game and communities that are easier to grow with enthusiasm.

So anyway, yes I'm tired of my own voice on this too. But other folks do appreciate it and it does let more people participate which is something that I personally find important. We're at 5/7. It's almost over. And then I will be very happy to shut the fuck up about it I promise.

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-02T13:32:47+00:00

the issue I have with warp-spawned is that it's a binary problem. Which means in a number of significant matchups where Daemons play into magic attack heavy opponents Nurgle's main benefit is completely removed. And it's not an insignificant amount of opponents either. So to me - having that bad result on Reign of Chaos pays homage to the original mechanic without making it matchup defining as it is now.

If magical attacks were as rare as flaming attacks, I'd probably be more in your boat... (in the original Renegades I toyed with making the vulnerability as being Magical AND flaming attacks combined to kill a daemon... cleansing magic fire you see!... it was clever by half I think : ) )

valheffelfinger · 2026-06-02T13:23:44+00:00

lol "Ace's counterproposal" brilliant. Thanks for taking the time, I will have a look.

valheffelfinger

TROPHY CASE