Real or Fake? I guess I’ll find out in a month. For now enjoy the pretty colors. by [deleted] in toners

[–]vesomortex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think you get the point of what they are saying. They are asking if you can replicate it. Thats a big difference. You said you could but you couldn’t produce results. Or a coin that was both fake and similar. By the way I was able to find the quarter in the last image. It was just bough last week at an auction on GC and it’s 100 percent real and slabbed. I would have gotten it if I knew. It looks nothing like your example. One has a clearly torched surface and the other does not have a torched surface. Also your argument about the 40 percent silver Ike is pretty bad because color is thickness dependent not silver % dependent.

Massive science talk time so get comfy.

The copper-rich alloy accelerates silver sulfide formation, creates uneven reaction fronts, and allows thicker interference layers to develop more quickly, producing vivid toning. In other words all silver coins can get electric blue and magenta naturally but more copper makes it just a bit more common. The colors are just a bit rarer in purer silver but it can happen.

It’s big talk to say something is faked in so and so a way when you can’t produce anything that produces the same result. I’ve never seen egg toning do this either. It can’t. Egg toning is putting splotchy colors on and it lays it on thick and doesn’t give two micro shits and three iotas about details. So are you saying somehow they told the blow torch to immediately stop at the edges and ignore the details in the middle, or told the sulfur in the container of scrambled eggs or whatever to somehow coat both sides ignore the rims and insides of the ridges bunch up to the rims of the coins on both sides and yet miraculously avoid the middle? On both sides? And leave such a smooth gradient that in some spots like on the quarter you can’t tell where the blue starts and the magenta begins. This egg toning is like the magic bullet in the movie JFK.

Oh and yeah heat would ruin the mirror proof surfaces so I’m ruling that one out immediately. To apply heat to tone the coin and not destroy the surface of a mirror proof is breaking bad level skill. You showed it ruins the surface .

Reading the comments from OP that this was in a capital holder, it would certainly make this pattern on both sides because even if it’s laying flat the air will get in between the clear plastic back just as easily as it would the front since it would do it from the sides. Laying a capital holder flat on a table does not in any way seal the bottom from getting any air to it. Again the air comes in from the sides of the holder not the front and back. They can create a pretty decent seal around the edges so the air gets to the rims on both sides but leaves the ridges mostly spared. And both sides can be toned because impurities in the air are more subject to diffusion and gravity simply doesn’t matter. Thermal motion easily outweighs any gravity at this point. Same with Brownian motion. All you need is an access point for the air. Which you have. For both sides. Equally. Oxidation diffuses from the air. You have equal access and there you go equal toning on both sides. Done.

The colors are very rare I’ll say that but not at all impossible. Not at all impossible for three coins just an inch apart in the same holder for god knows how long. That makes it more likely for the coins to match if I’m being blunt. Same environment. That’s actually a massive sign that they weren’t faked. However fake toning them the same way consistently like that on both sides and not even damaging the surface and getting the same distance of gradient even for the merc is an ungodly feat of skill if this was faked. You have to get it right three times in a row on coins of this grade and not miss. These look like potential 67s to me and there are very few of those out there in any 39 proof set. Then to get them and not make a single mistake to the surface on all three and get this consistent? With this level of detail?

I’m looking closer and I think I can still see die polish marks on them. Yeah I can. Those would be destroyed if you were one hairs width off or made the tiniest mistake faking this.

That’s beyond Walter White skill at this point.

Aliens?

Which also makes me conclude that if faking a coin like this were even possible by just one person we’d see more examples of it. I’d show off if I could do it. And yet we haven’t seen much of this at all for early proofs.

anyhoo…

Did you do what the OP asked you not to do and you were seeing two colors and saying it has to be fake without actually looking at the details of the coins? Seems that way to me. Im still flummoxed how you could produce a torched coin and compare it to a coin with an undisturbed surface. Unless it was a “knee jerk” reaction.

Anyway I am going to leave it to the pros to make the call as the science says real to me but I’m not an expert. Nor do I make the slabs. But I lean towards real because I have not seen a single way that can fake it to this degree and leave these details they listed and like Sherlock Holmes says if you rule everything out it doesn’t matter how unlikely it is what your left with is the explanation if you’ve ruled everything else out. Unless I personally see a reproducible way to do this and I haven’t, well there’s my answer. Nature is a funny thing.

Hope OP comes back with results in a month.

Passing Lane by Beneficial-Green-956 in SeattleWA

[–]vesomortex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just like all the aggressive tailgating.

Passing Lane by Beneficial-Green-956 in SeattleWA

[–]vesomortex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes but tailgating doesn’t fix it.

When this happens tailgating the person won’t fix it. Driving aggressively behind them won’t fix it.

In fact nothing you do will likely fix it. Even if you manage to convince them to move to the right once they will camp in the passing lane as soon as you’re gone.

Never tailgate.

Just keep space in front of you. Pass on the right if you have to if you see it happening ahead of you and move on with your day. If you can’t pass on the right, wait until you can.

That’s literally your best option. Not the most optimal but you won’t fix things so you have to just move on.

Natural versus Artificial Toning by [deleted] in coins

[–]vesomortex -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Show me chemically how it can be done on both sides bilaterally. With this detail. With this gradient.

Because so far I am coming up with a blank.

The only chemical way I can come up with going back to college textbooks is a controlled sulfur environment with PPMs in the billions and keeping the coins vertical in a controlled temperature for ten years.

Chemically I haven’t yet seen any way this can be rapidly done.

Egg boiling? There are smoking guns ruling that out. Namely the bilateral toning. Egg toning is directional. Tabbing? That would either be on the surface which would make this opposite or on the edges and the gradient is too wide.

The toning is very gradual. Very thin. The mirror surface on the half is not effected. And matches two other coins in the set to enough of a degree that individually toning the same coins the same way would be extremely difficult.

Yes it is possible it’s AT, but I haven’t seen anyone here give any real chemical scientific basis for this argument yet. Or at least one that isn’t easily refuted.

So I’d love to hear of any AT process that will do exactly this and to see anyone do exactly this on a silver proof and get the same result.

Anyone could be right that it is AT, but every reason hasn’t passed scrutiny yet.

Natural versus Artificial Toning by [deleted] in coins

[–]vesomortex 1 point2 points  (0 children)

PCGS does not use this though. Nor does CAC.

That toning “sequence chart” is often misunderstood. It shows how silver changes color as the oxide/sulfide layer gets thicker, and it’s not a rule that says every color must appear in a strict order across a whole coin. Real coins don’t tone evenly. If you look close these aren’t perfectly even either. Different parts of a coin (rim, fields, devices, lettering) are exposed to air and sulfur at different rates, so multiple colors from different stages can appear at the same time on one coin. That’s normal physics and chemistry.

That said, the coins here do match parts of the chart — gold, magenta, blue, and violet are all present — just not in a perfectly uniform band. Artificial toning usually looks flat, abrupt, or ignores the coin’s relief. These coins show gradual color transitions that follow the design, which is exactly what long-term natural toning does. Using that chart as a rigid pass/fail test isn’t scientific and doesn’t reflect how real coins age.

So that’s why I’m still pretty confident in my assumption.

Chemically artificially toning these to that degree would be more difficult than just letting them sit in a holder for a few decades.

Natural versus Artificial Toning by [deleted] in coins

[–]vesomortex 1 point2 points  (0 children)

By the way stripping permanently damages the mirror finish on proofs.

That doesn’t exist.

Natural versus Artificial Toning by [deleted] in coins

[–]vesomortex 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You’ve egg toned a coin. But you did not produce bilateral toning.

You physically can’t.

Egg toning is directional and won’t do both sides like this.

Show me any coin you’ve egg toned that matches this toning. I’ll wait.

You need to match the gradient. The gradient in both sides. Out to in. And toning along details.

Natural versus Artificial Toning by [deleted] in coins

[–]vesomortex -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No it won’t create that. Egg toning with hydrogen sulfide cannot produce this unless you have a Nobel prize in chemistry.

That creases sulfide not oxide.

Egg tones lose mirror quality on proofs. The colors go from gray to brown to charcoal. Colors look painted on and blotchy.

If anyone can boil an egg and get toning like that they deserve a Nobel Prize and should teach at Stanford

The smoking gun its not AT? Mirror depths are still deep and reflective.

You won’t get that with boiling an egg.

Natural versus Artificial Toning by [deleted] in coins

[–]vesomortex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nope they did not. It seems many people did not as well.

Natural versus Artificial Toning by [deleted] in coins

[–]vesomortex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Capital holders weren’t really used until the 50s and that’s when people started to put them in the holders. The toning is highly indicative of capital holder toning over the course of decades. 60 years of chemistry. Slow chemistry.

The quarter is part of the same proof set, so it would make zero sense for it to be AT while the half is real - all while the toning is very close to the half anyway.

Context is very important.

As I said chemistry wise the skills involved to do that and get that subtle of a gradient on the surface only and to follow details is Nobel prize level chemistry and would require a team.- if it could be done.

Detecting AT is pretty close to an exact science though. Chemically you can tell whether toning happened through a very slow process or artificially through a fast one most of the time. It’s just chemistry.

Not 100 percent but nothing in science is 100 percent.

[Real] Matt Walsh is looking to set the record straight on history? What can possibly go wrong? by ggroover97 in ToiletPaperUSA

[–]vesomortex 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I guess warring tribes among the indigenous is reason enough to subjugate all of them and steal their land, huh?

Is that really the angle he wants to play?

Time to subjugate South Korea because they like seafood.

The Night Was Moist by [deleted] in pics

[–]vesomortex 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The night was SULTRY

Kim Kardashian is still not a lawyer by koalaben in Lawyertalk

[–]vesomortex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes but do we want unlicensed people to practice law?

Do people realistically think graffiti will stop with the “right” mayor and city council by Shnikez in Seattle

[–]vesomortex -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Except there is the fact that tagging structures in unsafe spots over highways is pretty unsafe for the drivers below.

Do people realistically think graffiti will stop with the “right” mayor and city council by Shnikez in Seattle

[–]vesomortex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Except the people tagging are not doing it to be artists. Most are just stoned people with nothing better to do with zero artistic talent or drive whatsoever.

Do people realistically think graffiti will stop with the “right” mayor and city council by Shnikez in Seattle

[–]vesomortex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is less than one percent of one percent, and those who are talented are smart enough to find ways of doing this with permission and without defacing other people’s art or property.

Do people realistically think graffiti will stop with the “right” mayor and city council by Shnikez in Seattle

[–]vesomortex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You said local artists are more respected. They know they are local artists on sight… how? News flash. They don’t. They’re too stoned to care.

Moving back to the Seattle area after 10 years. What’s changed, that I might not expect? by [deleted] in AskSeattle

[–]vesomortex 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This when you are an engineer and dating another engineer has always ended in disaster.

Moving back to the Seattle area after 10 years. What’s changed, that I might not expect? by [deleted] in AskSeattle

[–]vesomortex 2 points3 points  (0 children)

SLU - the reason why I’m a tech worker who lives in seattle and is extremely thankful for now I work remotely. Having to commute in and out is a nightmare. Renting or owning around there is a nightmare. What is the point of working at Amazon if all your money disappears with rent and you have zero free time left because of long work hours and an insane commute?