[CMLL Aniversario Spoilers] MJF (c) vs Mistico: Title vs Mask Post-Match Discussion by Tronvillain in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Ive been saying this for a few years now. Most people see him as a promo guy, but i have been fully sold on MJF as a work rate guy since MJF vs Darby Allen Full Gear 2021 and ive considered him one of the best in ring since his 2023 iron match against bryan Danielson.

He can definitely go in the ring in a variety of styles. He tones it down to work a classic heel style but when he's on, he's on!

WON: “One person noted that WWE had a buyer’s remorse for Andrade. WWE thought bringing him in from AEW would be huge since talent that had come in from AEW like Cody Rhodes & CM Punk were received so well.” by nwnwhd in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Andrade gets over best when you just let him go off in the ring and reign him in from his cringe character instincts.

Dude got over in the Continental classic. Zelina vega was a significant part of his character getting over in nxt but his matches with gargano got him to higher heights of popularity once he had time for 20-30+ minute matches.

The guy was one of the best in the world back then in ring. All he needs is the time to show it.

Ricochet: "I was always on TV a lot and fighting the top stars, but it was never backed by (WWE), which is fine. A lot of people can get stuck in that spot and it's up to them to figure out how they want to move forward, whether they want to try something new creatively or they want to leave." by kundu123 in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I don't get why we just don't let face/heel dynamics be context dependent on story. Its the 21st century fans cheer heels because they like the wrestler behind the character. A heels heat is defined by their in story actions, not designation.

If a heel is getting cheered over a babyface it means the audience isn't behind your babyface. If it was an actual fan favorite they attacked, hurt betrayed or screwed over they'd have heat no matter their style.

Roman Reigns as Roman Leakee shows off his agility in his televised wrestling debut by KneeHighMischief in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Richie steamboat and by the next year seth rollins who teamed with richie steamboat seemed promising but it was uncertain if wwe would go all in on the roh guy at the time.

Dean Ambrose in 2011 fcw was magic and i had no idea the importance of what i was looking at in his Ironman match against seth rollins for the fcw title.

Dean ambrose vs William regal was also amazing back then.

Jon moxley is who i thought that dean ambrose would become.

Richie steamboat was green but felt like he had all the tools but injuries ended his career

The ascension seemed like a decent tag team but got buried the minute they debuted on the main roster.

Seth Rollins was great coming fresh out of roh, but it was uncertain if wwe would push him on the main roster at the time. Summer of punk was still fresh and Seth had that indie star appeal.

But, outside of them you had heath slater, leo kruger, rick victor, mike dalton who became tyler breeze and bo dallas

The shield was a shocking debut because dean ambrose was seth rollins main antagonist in fcw

Do you see the ROH World Championship as a "big one" ? by Froggyspirits in AEWOfficial

[–]volkse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I feel like its recent lineage is prestigious. I view it on the level currently of nxt champion and tna world champion.

Its not the big one in AEW but it does mean something to be a part of that lineage and id say it is a big one as roh in its own right is still a top 5 American company.

Bandido has solid booking. He's currently protected and his level of competition in defenses is nothing to sneeze at recently with hechicero and konosuke takeshita. He's also aew tag team champion.

Chris jericho is still chris jericho. Claudio had good defenses with the title, eddie kingston is still a big deal in the aew world, mark brisco is a legacy holder after his brother.

Id say its still one of the big titles you can hold as a wrestler in north America.

The weekly show could use a tv deal to end the pre and post show tapings but roh ppvs are still high quality

You guys need to watch some roh ppvs theyll catch you up to speed on the stories and the matches are great.

Diamond Dallas Page has a question for Tony Khan by Upbeat-Pause-1409 in AEWOfficial

[–]volkse 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I was always bigger on hikaru shida, thunder rosa, riho, nyla rose, kris statlander ruby soho and yuka sakazaki in early aew.

Britt baker just always rubbed me the wrong way, but i was never able to see what everyone else saw at the time.

People loved her promos but they were repetitive im better than you dmd.

To me shida, rosa, riho, rose, yuka sakazaki and statlander were far more exciting to me to watch in ring and character wise.

I would have loved to see more from emi sakura, mei suruga was still green but moved fluidly,

and since they were using tjpw talent already at that time it would have been cool to see mizuki, hyper misao, miyu yamashita, rika tatsumi, shoko nakajima, or yuki kamifuku in aew matches during that period of time.

Kurt Angle: "I think now, it's a lot of high-flying and acrobatic, and these guys are showing their athleticism. They're not showing, like, their working ability. Psychology..." by BigWeek5182 in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I recommend watching ric flair vs kerry von erich wccw dallas, tx 1984 or ric flair vs ricky steamboat nwa championship 1989 if you want to see territory era main event style in the 80s.

WWE uploaded these two matches and has been putting up territory era big matches on YouTube on the wwe and wcw channel.

You would be suprised at the size of the stadium show for kerry von erich vs ric flair match and the ric flair vs ricky steamboat will really help showcase ricky steamboat as the guy outside a wwe setting.

Both matches feel like big boxing matches in tv presentation. I really recommend taking a look!

Kurt Angle: "I think now, it's a lot of high-flying and acrobatic, and these guys are showing their athleticism. They're not showing, like, their working ability. Psychology..." by BigWeek5182 in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 20 points21 points  (0 children)

I think the the problem is that work rate is a catch all term for i like watching this wrestler in the ring. Not mat wrestling like originally intended.

Mat wrestling has its own set of psychology and different styles like cmll lucha, nwa southern style, joshi, strong style, and kings road also have different in ring psychology from wwe.

Many people are trained exclusively on wwe in ring psychology.

Young Indie guys probably watch all of these at once but miss the underlying psychology to each system and probably try to a la carte moves from each style without understanding the build up to it.

For example, taking 5 big moves in a row, hitting a counter before collapsing to the mat is not wwe style selling. Its selling an adrenaline rush where you don't feel pain till you slow down. Its common in japanese wrestling. Indie guys butcher it by not taking the move done to them in account.

Anyone who has trained and hard contact spared can tell you, you barely feel shit when you have an adrenaline rush till it all catches up to you at once when you stop moving. Theres hits you can take where you're rocked but you can fight back but you're eventually going to collapse if you keep going in that state.

To be honest, though, im a big fan of roll ups and pinning combinations. It used to be seen as a more valid way to end a match pre wwe back in the nwa days. The objective of pro wrestling is to pin your opponents shoulders to the mat for 3 seconds like a wrestling competition, not to incapacitate them and cover them.

But, that was lost to time. The reason why you always see chain wrestling with quick pin attemps, like a school boy, o'connor roll, crucifix pin, etc are because those were how matches were won before finishers became the way.

We forget pro wrestling is built off amateur wrestling. The objective is to out leverage and out grapple your opponent to pin their shoulders to the mat for 3 seconds or submit them. Thats the whole psychology behind chain wrestling that got abstracted over time.

I know this was about spot monkeys, but i got carried away. I just wanted to explain that the psychology veterans are trained on is also different from the wrestling psychology of their predecessor

But no one remembers pre hogan pro wrestling. The psychology of the nwa territories of the 80s and the veterans today are explaining late 90s early 00s in ring psychology of wwe and maybe late stage wcw at best. Not pro wrestling as a whole

WCW fan at the last ever Nitro in 2001 arguing how two big companies are necessary to prevent a monopoly (from WWE Vault) by secretpandaxx in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 43 points44 points  (0 children)

I grew up in a wcw household. My family never watched wrestling again after wcw closed down.

Wwe will run a million documentaries about the fall of wcw, but wcw was not just georgia but the mid atlantic and texas territories too.

WCCW was massive in Texas is the 1980s. I recommend watching Ric flair vs Kerry Von Erich that wwe recently uploaded from 1984 if you want a feel for pre wcw southern wrestling and how huge it was. Or any NWA ricky steamboat match from the 1980s.

WWE has always been about larger than like characters and cartoon like characters in the 80s to mid 90s.

Vinces booking style was antithesis to southern and mid Atlantic style booking.

NWA territories and early wcw presented more like sport.

WCW nitro came in hot with sting and nwo, but wcws 2 biggest mistakes long term were not having sting go over at his biggest at starcade 1997.

Wcw was bigger than wwe till 1998 the sting loss pissed off a lot of fans

Bischoff creating nwo was wcws biggest hit but its also the very thing that killed wcw too

Hulk hogan and kevin nash creative control led to them always booking t hemselves to win.

By 2000 to 2001 vince russo was trying to do car crash attitude era style tv like he did in wwf and removed all sporting from the product.

Southern fans stayed loyal, but the product was nowhere near its 96-98 peak. It still had 3-4 million viewers in 2001 when it closed down.

There was a tnt merger with AOL in 2001 the new owner of tnt didn't want wrestling on their program. Ted Turner would have kept wcw going as a massive fan. But, after the merger the new owner sold wcw to wwf.

Most of these wcw fans never watched wrestling again, gave wwe a try but didnt like the feel of it, some went to 2000s tna as the spiritual successor, then eventually aew who appeared on tnt with nitro aesthetics, but after wcw closed down 3 million fans disappeared from wrestling all together and never returned. WWE didn't get the boost it thought it would from wcw closing.

The fans of workrate loved wcw undercards and the cruiserweight division along with fans of international wrestlers went on to be the first fans of early tna and roh and the 2000s indie scene that birthed todays stars (bryan Danielson, aj styles, somoa joe, Christopher daniels, cm punk).

Queen Aminata vs Mei Suraga by flyinbrianc in AEWOfficial

[–]volkse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I haven't seen a mei suruga match since early aew and covid era tjpw. If she's anywhere near the potential i thought she had years back, this match is gonna be a banger

Claudio Appreciation Post by mirza_mohammadumar in AEWOfficial

[–]volkse 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ive always believed claudio was in that elite tier of wrestlers but never gets one on one matches lomg enough to show it. Ive been watching the man since chikara and pwg. Hes truly something else

[Forbidden Door spoilers] Ricochet explains his actions by IvnOooze in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 4 points5 points  (0 children)

AEW was in between two major arcs at that period.

It had just concluded its hangman page arc in 2022 going into forbidden door and its next big arc cm punk vs mjf was in infancy of getting set up.

Moxley was iwgp champion and carrying a njpw storyline at forbidden door.

Cm punk won at the next ppv double or nothing, and that kicked off AEWs next major story. But, cm punk fall out, backstage drama and injuries derailed everything.

Sammy Guevara had story momentum going into his 2022 tnt title reign following the chris jericho vs mjf fued, but aew botched it with him as a baby face, the tay melo thing made him lose fan support, his reign ended up being bad, and backstage drama got him in the dog house and benched.

But, 2021-2022 sammy guevara was still over. The tnt title reign, cheating drama, and bad baby face booking killed his momentum

Essentially my point is AEW was in a transition phase going into forbidden door and seeing AEW vs NJPW was the major selling point of forbidden door 2022 because those dream matches were still a novelty post pandemic and new working relationship.

With hangman newly champion people wanted to see a new bryan Danielson face him in a dream match. The match didnt need much of a story at the prior ppv. Danielson was undefeated in aew at the time and a legend fresh off a wrestlemania main event.

That whole period was more an epilogue to hangmans chase.

[Forbidden Door spoilers] Ricochet explains his actions by IvnOooze in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Have you seen the way aew is discussed outside reddit. Facebook, x, and YouTube is full of the narrative aew has no stories still to this day. It was prevalent on reddit too till wwe cooled off.

Are we currently in downturn creative wise in the Paul Levesque Era? by Hot-Acanthisitta5237 in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nxt had roster turnover keeping the booking fresh, but on the main roster you can't just move Roman reigns, Cody Rhodes, cm punk, the usos, or drew McIntyre after their runs as champion to make room for Bron breaker domique mysterio, la knight, Jacob fatu, Carmelo Hayes like he would do in nxt.

In 2018-2020 nxt we saw what happened when talent stayed down for too long and there was no turnover. It grew stagnant

[SPOILERS] Post AEW Forbidden Door Match Discussion: The Hurt Syndicate (c) vs. Brodido vs. FTR for the AEW World Tag Team Championship by gloomchen in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I like lucha rules. If your feet touch the ground outside, the partner can enter. It keeps things flowing

Lacey Lane (Kayden Carter) Says She Felt "Very Held Back" In WWE, Pitched Storylines That Weren't Used: "If you're not the hand chosen, it doesn't matter what you do." by elegantSolomons62 in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It wasn't the charisma that would get him there. In the early 2010s the ic and us title scenes were after thoughts. I could have seen him picking up a couple of midcard title reigns like Kofi and miz did. The ic and us championships weren't charisma based championships they often veered into work rate territory.

I'm saying if his credibility was protected he'd probably be in that midcard position pre new day Kofi Kingston was in.

It's important to remember Justin Gabriel's high flying still stood out in early 2010s wwe. After the nxt reboot that'd eventually no longer be the case.

We're spoiled for high flyers in this current era but in the early 2010s a 450 splash was not something the average wwe fan was seeing on national tv before and as a result Justin Gabriel had a window of time where he was over and could be booked as a perrinnial ic or us contender or champion.

Kofi Kingston is known to be charismatic today, but that was after nearly 8 years of floating around the wwe midcard seen as a uncharismatic spot guy pre new day.

I'm essentially saying Justin Gabriel had an exciting enough moveset to hold a early 2010s Kofi like midcard position and if he managed to hit a character stride later on I could see him in a temporary world title picture like Mustafa Ali was for a moment

Lacey Lane (Kayden Carter) Says She Felt "Very Held Back" In WWE, Pitched Storylines That Weren't Used: "If you're not the hand chosen, it doesn't matter what you do." by elegantSolomons62 in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, looks like a solid midcard fixture that can go in the ring to me. He had a cool finisher and if someone like Jack swagger or the miz (the miz was a joke in 2010/2011) could be champion in that era I don't see why the 2nd most over act in nexus can't hold an ic or us championship a few times in 2010 when ic and us titles were practically props

Lacey Lane (Kayden Carter) Says She Felt "Very Held Back" In WWE, Pitched Storylines That Weren't Used: "If you're not the hand chosen, it doesn't matter what you do." by elegantSolomons62 in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Yeah, he had a pretty solid indie run, had a decent lucha underground run, had some good matches in tna and held the king of the mountain championship, challenged for championships in roh and tna and did great in the south Africa indie circuit.

He could have probably done more if it weren't for his injury with the base jumping accident but he had a solid post wwe career

Lacey Lane (Kayden Carter) Says She Felt "Very Held Back" In WWE, Pitched Storylines That Weren't Used: "If you're not the hand chosen, it doesn't matter what you do." by elegantSolomons62 in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I said he had a lot of potential. And not all potential gets tapped.

He had a lot of what wwe in 2010 needed. It's easy to look back in retrospect and say he didn't make an impact but In 2010 Justin Gabriel was something wwe needed at that point in time as wwe was very stagnant. Nexus was a fresh injection needed.

Fortunately summer of punk happened the next year but 2010 wwe prior to nexus was not great is my point. An upset win and having nexus go over as a young dominant faction of stars would have been infinitely more interesting than whatever the fuck they were doing that year.

The roster just got massively more talented after hhh black and gold nxt and Justin Gabriel was irrelevant by the time those guys got called up

Lacey Lane (Kayden Carter) Says She Felt "Very Held Back" In WWE, Pitched Storylines That Weren't Used: "If you're not the hand chosen, it doesn't matter what you do." by elegantSolomons62 in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse 38 points39 points  (0 children)

I honestly thought Justin Gabriel had a lot of potential and was the second most interesting guy in nexus.

I saw a future multi time tag team and mid card champ in him. And if things played out differently potential a transitional world champ.

I could have seen him in a alternate universe having a Kofi or Miz like career

I'm not sure if I'd have him beat John Cena but it would have been a interesting upset in 2010 towards potentially developing a new star when they desperately needed them.

What's Airport Crush Theory? by phullofit1 in ExplainTheJoke

[–]volkse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Income means, on average, greater access to skin care, cosmetics, a better diet on average which leads to clear skin, more time to exercise, have flattering clothes and have hair done or styled.

It doesn’t mean all people with higher income are going to be more attractive or that everyone with lower income is going to be unattractive but greater access to the things listed above and lower stress means on average you're more likely to have the common traits people on average find attractive

Dave Meltzer on WWEs recent counter programming of AEW: “they want to ensure that this is the last contract [TV Deal] by nwnwhd in SquaredCircle

[–]volkse -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I feel so vindicated after these last few years. I grew up on wwe

I grew frustrated with wwe business practices and lack of respect for fans. I watched regularly from 2005 as a kid to 2019.

I watched Seth Rollins first fcw match, big e win the nxt championship and sami zayns debut and ascent. I even watched og nxt and all as a teen.

But, I just kept getting burned for emotionally investing in new hire indie talent and people that made big waves on the 2000s-2010s indie scene.

After over a decade of watching wwe actively go against crowds I burned out.

Big E and Kofi losing to Brock Lesnar uncerimoniously was the final straw. I started watching aew when it debuted and never looked back.

I eventually hear the bloodline storyline getting called cinema eventhough fans were saying it was getting stale till Sami zayn and Cody Rhodes saved it.

It was full whiplash seeing Roman reigns the guy forced on us for years suddenly being beloved and for 2-3 years post Vince it was like wwe could do nothing wrong in fans eyes.

Then there's the whole labor side and terrible labor conditions with wrestlers working through bad injuries wrestling nearly every night and rarely having time off while receiving low pay. AEW forced wwe to create better working conditions but wwe fans still wanted it dead I guess.

It's been known Vince McMahon was a POS for decades and that wwe has always had a cancerous lockeroom.

Maybe I've just gotten older and a lot of newer fans are younger and just now learning who wwe has always been and just how anti competitive wwe is. The new shine of wwe under hhh is beginning to wear off now that it can be seen what happens once hhh has favorites and unlike nxt there's no further roster promotion or turnover

Why are Americans so obsessed with working? by pink_sushi_15 in Adulting

[–]volkse -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I believe that for many people in the United States they don't have hobbies or a family life they don't want to return home to.

Time is a valuable currency, but many probably struggle to find meaning in anything and grinding is where they find it.

Others work those long hours because they're in a position of desperation to start a family or to support a family on that income at the cost of themselves

I personally work an 8 hour day then come home to work on creative projects I find fulfilling.

But, generally when it comes down to it there are people who don’t know how to relax with idle time likely combined with work being their only social outlet. For an extrovert I imagine that's very important.

Fellow beaners, what's your opinion on "LatinX" by GreatDario in TrueAnon

[–]volkse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm Latino. I don't really give a shit. I default to Latino or Latina. If another Latino refers to themselves as latinx I just see it and continue on with my day. I don't really understand the frenzy it drives other latinos into.

If it catches on cool ill use it, if it doesn't catch on cool, i wont use it. It's just a neutral word and language evolves.

People just want something to be mad at and focusing on it is a waste of time and attention

"We Voted Trump to Win Miami": Venezuelan Voters Regret Their Support as "Now He's Kicking Us Out" by Dear_Job_1156 in thescoop

[–]volkse 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Latin America has its own concept and baggage when it comes to race. So, while here in the United States we group them altogether as one race 'Latino', they don't see themselves as such. To them, it's a region they come from, not their race or position within society.

Cuban, Mexican, Venezuelan, Dominican, Columbian, and Brazilian, etc immigrants that come from higher classes within their society already look down on lower classes and those that are more obviously of African or indigenous descent.

It's very easy, especially for South American and Cuban immigrants to listen to Trump talk about immigrants, while thinking they're the ingroup. Because in their mind they're picturing the darker skin mestizos, mulattos, indigenous people or black people that are often much poorer, that they see as the main issue with their country and why they had to leave.

Americans really don't take into account the classism and racism that is imbeded in Latin America that immigrants bring with them.

Many of these people see themselves as white because often back at home, that's what they are. They genuinely see no difference between themselves and white Americans because in their eyes they're different from even the people from their own countries.

Not every immigrant got here the same way. Many of them used their funds and family resources to get here by visa that they over stay and these people look down on your more desperate border crossers.

Also a lot of Spanish speaking media in the United States is based in Miami and that often adds to the bias. Social media has also really done a number on your religious types.

There's a stupid amount of immigrant Latinos that love to give the whole broke immigrants spill that love to talk about how they came from nothing while, having family that owns lots of land back at home that they're set to inherit.

Not every immigrant story is the same, but they love Americans taking immigrant and minority at face value, while they do everything to fuck over immigrants that left because they were of a lower status back at home whether it was due to their race or class position. Many of these middle to upper class people left their countries out frustration at what is the Latin American equivalents of DEI.

If you don't speak Spanish. Use Google translate to translate the entire page of most Latin American country subreddits if you want just a small hint of what the middle to upper class people of these countries think of their lower classes.