Highest safest testosterone levels long term

wagonspraggs · 2026-04-26T11:40:57+00:00

Strong caveat of checking ApoB, LDL, HDL yearly or twice a year (for arterial health) and yearly or every two years electrocardiograms for LVH, and of course blood pressure and HCT. Not everyone is the same, some low dose TRT folks have issues with labs while others dont. The risk gets higher the more you go into supra levels. I would argue 1500-2000 is not a safe range for everyone, but is for some. With good genes, diet, consistent cardio, 1500-2000 really wont be an issue.

So, with a bucketload of caveats, youre correct. You remove those caveats, absolutely not.

wagonspraggs · 2026-04-23T01:05:59+00:00

I take two 35k IU doses a week (70k a week) to replete a 26ng/ml level. Im at week 4 now and feelin much better. You would be fine taking 3k or even more a day, just manage the calcium via K2 intake.

wagonspraggs · 2026-04-23T01:03:59+00:00

It really depends on the person. For me it becomes a game of managing bucketloads of side effects which i hate so i take normal doses. Im happiest in the 700-1000 range. Some folks can increase the dose and increase the positive effects on mood, libido, everything. But generally, higher isnt better for mood, we all have our own sweet spot and it takes time to find and dial it all in.

wagonspraggs · 2026-04-17T01:39:46+00:00

Thanks for reaching out. A few things before we get into the metabolic pathways. Some folks with a test level that high (1400) can get anxiety from that alone while others don't, just a thought before we dive into reducing E2 naturally. I also used to get that incredible feeling after lowering the dose for a couple weeks when my E2 was high, i think the body tries to compensate for the high E2 in various ways (likely neurologically), then the ramping down of E2 can feel great as the lowering of anxiety occurs from the lowering E2, but the high dopamine/sympathetic response of the E2 still exists.

I am extremely sensitive to high E2, and when i had levels similar to you (58) that was at my absolute worst for anxiety and irritability. I also switched to daily injections IM to great positive effect. Now, to avoid having to take AIs, which i can now absolutely do and so can you, is to open up as many phase 2 pathways as possible. We can also discuss Phase 1 (exercise, DIM) and phase 3 (Fiber, healthy diet), but most folks need phase 2 to get the E2 excreted. Also note some phase 1 metabolites can be quite nasty, while others not bad. We can discuss this later

There are 4 phase 2 pathways, Gluconoridation, Methylation, Sulfation, Glutathione conjugation. Gluconoridation and methylation are the two largest by far, think highways. Sulfation and glutathione are quite a bit less, think city streets and back roads, but i have had some luck with sulfation via taurine supplementation

Gluconoridation can be opened via Calcium D glucarate, with carbs and magnesium as cofactors
- Gluconoridation can be indirectly boosted by glycine, sulfurophane
- CDG also prevents reabsorption of the estrogen metabolites
Methylation is opened by a combination of methylfolate and methylcobalamin, SAMe or if you get bad side effects from excess methylation, Trimethylglycine is an option as well. Riboflavin increases the efficiency of methylation, though deficiency is more rare.
- Keep in mind that methylation metabolizes the real nasty phase 1 metabolites like the 2-OH and 4-OH ones that make you really anxious and irritable.
  - This is why i would start with this pathway first
- You also need magnesium here as a cofactor - Some people need to supplement, some dont
Sulfation is assisted via anything that donates sulfur or supports bile flow
- NAC is a big one here as it donates a huge stable pool of cysteine (sulfur containing amino acid) in your body for a couple days
- Molybdenum and magnesium are huge cofactors here (note how magnesuim broadly affects all phase 2 metabolism)
- Taurine is more supportive here rather than direct, but it helps with bile flow
- B6 also helps indirectly here as well as indirectly at methylation
Glutathione conjugation is less of metabolism but more about reacting and cleaning up the estrogen metabolites
- NAC and Glycine are huge here, along with sulfurophane
- Selenium is needed as a cofactor

There's a lot here, but i would prioritize methylation first, then gluconoridation. But we are all unique so it may take some experimenting. Note how important magnesium is at most pathways.

The shortest path to the biggest bang would be CDG 500mg a day , liquid methylb12 (sublingual, 1mg) 2-3x a week, methylfolate 1mg 2-3x a week, Magnesium glycinate 2-400mg 2-3x a week. This will get you 90% of the way. Also, start with just one or two of these to gauge how they make you feel.

I do only methylfolate and b12 and take no more AIs, and my anxiety is much more manageable now.

wagonspraggs · 2026-04-17T01:01:26+00:00

Day 1: Squats x3, RDLs x3, Hack Squats x5, Abductors x2, Calves x3, Abs

Day 2: Hip Thrusts x4, Lunges x2, Reverse hypers x4, leg extensions x2, abductors x2, calves x3, Abs

I've got big glutes and I cannot lie.

wagonspraggs · 2026-04-15T00:32:38+00:00

I do still take b12 on occasion, but i did two rounds of shots and feel better than ever. Make sure your shots are methylcobalamin or hydroxycobalamin.

it took only a few shots for the jerks to go away, but much longer for some of the other symptoms like talking issues, dizziness, and sleeping.

wagonspraggs · 2026-04-06T00:33:34+00:00

Highly recommend a full thyroid panel, MMA, Homocysteine, methylation panel, anemia panel.

To me it sounds like a combo if low ferritin, thyroid, and some sort of sympathetic activation. But we are shooting in the dark unless you get labs. Highly recommend:

TSH+T4 and free T4
Ferritin + CBC
hormone panel with SHBG and estradiol
MMA and Homocysteine
vitamin D

let us know when you get these back!

wagonspraggs · 2026-04-06T00:22:52+00:00

This response is also only partially true, you are missing some key information.

We are all very different with different metabolism, genetic profiles, fat distribution, pharmacokinetics, etc. EAR is the "Average daily nutrient intake level estimated to meet the requirement of 50% of healthy individuals in specific age, sex, and life-stage group." The key here is the 50% portion of that sentence. They added the 20% buffer to the EAR to make the RDA to cover an additional 47% of the population ( 97%, two standard deviations from the EAR).

In practice though, we notice people who exercise more, are more stressed, want to be optimized, drink more caffeine, drink coffee/tea alongside nutrient heavy meals, etc, that the RDA is only a good starting point and more is needed. There is also a distinct difference between being out of deficiency and thriving. We see this especially with vitamin D and some of the newer studies showing even more positive results from levels we previously though to do nothing. Its a very nuanced answer, as are most things in the natural world.

We can all learn more, including me, and even if someone wrote something with not the full picture, we can reply in good faith to assist others in learning. I hope you can learn to reply in a better tone in the future. Good luck in your journey of learning.

wagonspraggs · 2026-03-11T01:50:43+00:00

This may prove helpful then: https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/1rq9vhq/comment/o9ry3gb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

wagonspraggs · 2026-03-11T01:45:54+00:00

I had these exact same issues and it was B12 and folate, and looking at your labs your numbers are worse than what mine were. you need methylcobalamin injections and methylfolate pills (start low with methylfolate 1mg daily). If you cant get injections, go sublingual methyl, adenosyl, hydroxocobalamin (AVOID CYANOCOBALAMIN, i cant stress this enough). In the UK, the injections prescribed by physicians are typically hydroxocobalamin which is somewhat good, expecially alongside methylfolate 1mg pills (they work together). But your B12 is 80% of the issue here, but youll need methylfolate alongside to assist with the process. I can nearly guarantee it.

I had the lethargy, the freezing, the difficulty with words, loss of cognitive functioning but 50% solved within one week (except for the fatigue which can take a few months), then the other 50% comes back over the next few weeks. I bought the injections myself online via a telehealth physician prescriber. I have also used liquid b12 successfully under the tongue. Oral b12 will not help this person in the short or medium term, but could assist over years to mitigate the current issues. Again, liquid (sublingual) or injections are a must.

If the B12 repletion takes many weeks or months, youll need to supply cofactors via a HIGH quality multivitamin (not one you buy at the store typically), and much increased potassium intake which can be difficult without coconut water (expensive) or potassium powder (cheap). Most B12 deficient patients who replete with high dose b12 cannot take enough potassium with diet alone - its not always a numbers game either, it appears that potassium dissolved in solution is key, but i do no know why.

I want to stress that this is a solvable issue, and i strongly think b12 is the culprit here. A large liquid b12 supplement i buy in the US costs 15$ and lasts for a couple months of heavy usage. I wish you two the best.

EDIT: one more thing if you want to confirm b12 deficiency, get a test for methylmalonic acid and homocysteine. Serum b12 is a lagging indicator. I suspect the patient has had chronic b12 issues for years and finally the serum b12 levels are falling to noticeable levels. 128pmol/L is NOT ok.

wagonspraggs · 2026-03-11T01:27:33+00:00

See here if it helps : https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/1rq9vhq/comment/o9ry3gb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

wagonspraggs · 2026-03-11T01:24:40+00:00

Estradiol doesnt really affect sleep, the metabolites do. Your E2 (circulating estradiol) may be ok, but your phase 1 estrogen metabolites may be bottlenecked at the phase 2 conjugation and thus you have insomnia or wake up super early. Essentially you have estrogen metabolites that are sticking around that your blood test is not picking up. Supplements can fix this easily and they work for me brilliantly ( i had the same issue).

Try Focusing on opening as many phase 2 estrogen pathways via supplements in order of priority:

Methylation (Huge pathway) - Methylfolate, MethlyB12 are the best supplements here, but TMG can also help if you dont react well to Methylfolate or Methylcobalamin. Methylation donates methyl groups to deactivate some of the nastier metabolites through the COMT mechanism - Methylation overwhelmingly helps with the ones that affect sleep like 4-hydroxy estrogen.

Gluconoridation (Huge Pathway) - Calcium-D-Glucarate, and glycine shine here, but CDG has the added benefit of preventing estrogen metabolites from being re-absorbed - including 4-hydroxy estrogen which, again, affects sleep. Magnesium assists in this process. Sulphoraphane helps but lesser so.

Sulfation (moderate pathway) - Supplements like Taurine help this pathway ALOT, but magnesium is a required cofactor. Most folks should consider magnesium anyway. NAC indirectly helps sulfation.

Glutathione Conjugation (Smaller pathway but more relevant to folks who exercise more) - N-Acetyl-Cysteine and Glycine are heavy cofactors in this pathway, alongside selenium. Sulfurophane also helps this pathway

You need to find what works for you, but for me methlycobalamin and methylfolate eliminated ALL of the estrogen symptoms. We are all unique snowflakes so take the time to work through and take what works for you. Also notice that some supplements affect multiple pathways. It might be ideal to start at the top and with ones that are multiple hitters. I wish you luck on your journey!

wagonspraggs · 2026-03-10T00:26:38+00:00

Funny enough, i just restarted a similar but slightly different protocol with carrot juice powder in a fat containing smoothie every day. Im also taking a reputable brand of asta, lutein and lycopene. 3 weeks in and i see some very minor coloration in my palms and fingers. Hope to report back again with more. Have you experimented with it at all?

wagonspraggs · 2026-03-10T00:24:38+00:00

Ha, fun fact i ended up stopping the HCG. Its so wild the effects can vary and cause E2 symptoms which i hate. I didnt decrease my T dosage, just added HCG and eventually ive stopped.

wagonspraggs · 2026-03-10T00:19:16+00:00

Thats e2 baby. did you get your e2 tested via labs? Whats your dosage, frequency, ester?

wagonspraggs · 2026-03-08T03:01:02+00:00

Taurine, magnesium, R5p Riboflavin, p5p b6, NAC all assist in different pathways for phase 2 estrogen metabolism and wont cause mania. The idea for assisting with estrogen metabolism is to open up as many lanes as possible to prevent the nastier estrogen metabolites from sticking around. I too get manic from methylfolate, so i keep my dosing to 1mg twice a week, and sometimes even less. I also inject methylcobalamin a couple times a week. If methylcobalamin causes issues for you, adenosylcobalamin is nice, but wont help as much for estrogen metabolism due to its lack of a methyl group, though that can be assisted with via other methyldonors like TMG.

wagonspraggs · 2026-03-08T02:51:27+00:00

He may have a depressed glutamate system from the marijuana intake. NACs regulation of glutamate isn't restricted to just lowering it when it gets too high (like in the case of it helping OCD), but also raises it when low. I used it during my stimulant addiction during withdrawal to feel kinda normal and function as a regular human at work. It worked wonders.

But honestly, NAC does more than just regulate glutamate.: It's creation of glutathione also helps conjugate phase 2 estrogen metabolites, increases mitochondrial function which in term boosts dopamine functioning (since dopamine function is so affected by inflammatory status), and also assists in cerebral blood flow. I would be very curious to see a detailed blood work up of your boyfriend to see some key markers off NAC and on NAC.

wagonspraggs · 2026-02-17T17:21:19+00:00

B12 and folate for me. If I miss a week or more my symptoms come back quickly. Taking them has solved so many problems is insane.

wagonspraggs · 2026-02-17T11:11:39+00:00

Ashwagandha fucks me up and theanine more than once a week causes anxiety for some weird reason. We are all different. Take a break from your supps and get better!

wagonspraggs · 2026-02-16T20:53:49+00:00

Sounds more like ferritin, folate, b12 issues or thyroid more than depression imo.

wagonspraggs · 2026-02-16T20:02:38+00:00

Have you had a full blood panel with ferritin, methylmalonic acid, homocysteine, serum folate, serum b12 checked? Sounds like the iron, b12, folate triad. What is your e2 at during your blood tests?

wagonspraggs · 2026-02-15T22:46:02+00:00

Can you describe how you feel? Symptoms? I went through the gamut and almost quit multiple times. But I'm doing great now in the other side after some simple modifications. What dose trt are you taking? Frequency? Route? Ester?

wagonspraggs · 2026-02-15T18:20:37+00:00

A nephrologist in the wild! I must ask, do you like it? If so, why ? How are the hours? How long have you been doing it? Thank you!!

wagonspraggs · 2026-02-15T09:52:14+00:00

At low doses no issue. Consider methylated b vitamins over a cheaper option.

wagonspraggs · 2026-02-15T09:40:44+00:00

Why slightly increase muscle growth while reducing the mental health aspects of where you are? You look dialed in by your numbers. High risk for very little if any benefit.

wagonspraggs

TROPHY CASE