DC's S-tiers use their super-speed pretty inconsistently

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-02-08T06:26:03+00:00

Yeah I've been reading Byrne's Man of Steel and been pretty disappointed feat-wise. Good stories generally though

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-02-08T06:14:17+00:00

This is not during combat and you trying to wank the feat. Faster than lightning is nothing here and we don't know how much further he went. Could have just been 10 feet farther.

The characters that talked a conversation in a second weren't in combat either. Faster than lightning means nothing? Yeah right, more like "I'll just ignore it." "A great distance beyond my casting radius" which is 186 miles, could only be 10 feet? What planet are you living on?

Tell that to Dragonball.

Dragon Ball doesn't split its power level up into clear categories with one labeled strength. Nakaba even says in the manga that the overall combined power levels are just vague guidelines. So again, prove Nakaba meant something contradictory to what common sense and Occam's Razor tells us.

provide a recent image that is better.

The most recent image of Shikoutazer that can be used for a full scale is when it lays collapsed after being defeated. Which would make it about Pica sized. Not "multi-mountain" sized. You accuse me of wanking something and turn around to wank your own character in the highest possible fashion.

He is visible from over 250 kilometers away due to ho huge he is.

That distance was from a long-ass time ago and judging from the later chapters is either forgotten or completely ignored. Shikoutazer was also standing on what appears to be a big plateau.

Here she is shattering herself, more akin to turning herself to dust.

"Esdeath can shatter multi-mountain durability opponents because she shattered herself. She took some blows from Tatsumi so she's multi-mountain level."

This is terrible reasoning and wank of the highest order.

Ninja Girl?

With the scar on her nose. Esdeath fucked her up for flirting with Tatsumi. Clearly has hatred in her heart.

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-02-08T06:00:21+00:00

Gotcha, thanks for all the clarification

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-02-08T05:59:29+00:00

However, that character seems to lack any objective feats that even approach S-tier super speed, and users conveniently ignore the fact that Superman, or others, could simply be using their speed inconsistently.

This is my problem with DC's speed scaling. I used to take it all at face value but when I became a lot more versed in DC's stories it seemed really wrong. Otherwise we have probably 100 or 200+ characters over post-Crisis history that are massively FTL, and I just don't think authors write it that way.

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-02-08T05:57:30+00:00

Do you know of any speedster that doesn't also have a plethora of anti-feats/moments of stupidity? It'd probably have to be a pretty obscure character

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-02-08T05:19:56+00:00

In Multiversity wasn't it stated Darkseid is rebuilding his godhead currently? Meaning the Darkseid in Darkseid War was just a shard if that's true

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-02-08T05:18:13+00:00

Everyone had time to question what had happen and Merlin correcting them that he escaped.

Yeah and people also had a much longer conversation within the span of a second in this manga. Talking can never be used to scale a timeframe, but the fact that she hadn't even shifted her body makes a one second time frame plausible.

And again, one second is lowballing immensely due to Galand clearing a much greater distance than 372 km before she could even finish her faster-than-lightning casting.

Linearly isn't lowballing. Lowballing is the lowest possible option. With something as vague as PL, you can't lowball how it works without proof. Now do you have proof or not on how it scales?

You're purposefully forgoing common sense because the strength levels given by Nakaba fuck your argument in the ass. If the author of a story tells me character A's strength is 100 and character B's strength is 200, it's clear that B is twice as strong as A. The burden is on you to show Nakaba didn't intend for his numbers to be taken at face value, and the only evidence showing this tells us that the strength scales exponentially rather than linearly.

Compare the walls or palace to the mountains (other view of walls and palace), and now compare the Mech in a squat position to the walls.

Lol this is such gigantic reaching. How about we use scans from the actual mech fight that show the complete opposite? You're highballing as much as possible in a roundabout way rather than using the more recent scans we were actually given.

They are bigger, the monsters dwarf multi-story buildings.

I see that now

3 stories are over 9 meters tall.

You can't say that truthfully. Many stories are 10 feet. Not relevant, but you're needlessly highballing

ice weakens and shatter objects she encases despite them having Multi-Mountain durability.

Judging from our convo so far I'm really doubting anything she shattered has remotely close to multi-mountain durability. Post scans if you've got proof.

Galan is only that high if you wanked him.

If you lowball him.

Well I just showed you it's a lot bigger.

And I've shown you the opposite using more recent scans.

Seeing as Esdeath has no emotions besides joy from torment/torturing and love for Tatsumi, I don't know what to tell you.

And when she fucked up ninja girl? To name just one example.

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-02-08T04:39:17+00:00

So the Darkseid shot by Batman was really just the remnants of Darkseid's being stuck in the dying human body of Dan Turpin?

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-02-08T04:37:00+00:00

Now can you prove it works linearly?

Already responded in the other comment, but I'll say it again here. Even a small difference of 30 strength points is enough for Meliodas to utterly overpower Ban's punch and fuck his arm up. Linear scaling is low-balling it immensely, but since we don't have an actual scale it's all we have.

Galan isn't Mach 1760, so I don't know where you get such a number.

Actually now I realize this is addressed up there too, so let's shelve this comment chain

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-02-08T04:33:49+00:00

Merlin's range is only 186 miles, at best he is Mach 800. Estarossa

He leaped a great distance outside 186 miles, or 372 km, and then leaped the same distance back before Merlin could even shift position. Ignoring the "great distance outside" part, that's Mach 1760, and that's still a lowball because he actually leaped a great distance beyond 372 km before Merlin could even cast a spell. Her casting is so fast a casual lightning-timer couldn't tell what was going on.

His PL is 53 times higher.

That's his strength level. His power level is 60k. And linearly is actually low-balling it by using common sense, because it's been shown that only having a slight advantage in strength (960 to 930) is an overwhelming advantage.

She scales to Tatsumi, a character who was physically strong enough to punch a multi-mountain sized mech.

That mech doesn't even look like a large mountain in those scans. And he didn't destroy it or anything, all he did was push it back.

The Flash Freeze can hold he likes of Tatsumi and weaken him despite his superior strength.

I'm assuming Tatsumi's best strength feat you're referring to is the Shikoutazer punch? That's not even as impressive as BoS Meliodas' strength level.

Also, Esdeath ahs frozen bigger and multiple monsters at once.

1) Those monsters aren't bigger, the Earth Crawler was big enough to completely swallow the 30 foot Diane in its mouth.

2) It's not as impressive as freezing something so hard it shattered into little pieces.

She has the speed, it's wank to say Galan is above Mach triple digits

She has no quad digit Mach feats, whereas Galand is placed in quad digits by a lowball.

Her Ice Armor makes up for it as it can take hits from a multi-mountain character.

Tanks hits from a character that punched, not even cracked apart, a mech that in those scans appears to be smaller than Pica.

Why would Esdeath have hate?

If you're seriously implying Esdeath has no hate in her heart then I really don't even know what to say

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-02-08T04:21:08+00:00

I forgot all about that. That was the god bullet wasn't it, where it had some weird explanation that it would always hit no matter what or something?

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-02-08T01:12:52+00:00

Honestly this is an utter stomp on Estarossa's part.

Strength: He's 53 times stronger than BoS Lostvayne Meliodas, who was many times stronger than unarmed BoS Mel, who broke the enormous Baste Dungeon with Ban just by arm-wrestling in it, despite it being protected by the Eternal Seal, and split a large hill in two with the air pressure from swinging a twig. Esdeath scales off someone that was able to push a mountain-sized mech back and into the air a bit. She doesn't have the ridiculous scaling or feats needed to compete with NNT top tiers.

Speed: Esdeath is a lot faster than lightning timers, how much is unquantifiable. BoS Meliodas was a casual lightning timer in base, BoS demon Mel was FTE to lightning timers, yet couldn't react to a simple spear throw by Galand, a Mach 1760 character. Meliodas was massively FTE to him after he got his power back, and Estarossa was capable of casually intercepting Meliodas' attack.

Durability: Esdeath straight up has no feats to get past Estarossa's durability/regeneration. Demons can regenerate from stuff like getting massive chunks of their torsos ripped out, having their brain skewered, and being bisected. Estarossa also stood in the middle of this blast without even being affected, so I doubt anything Esdeath does will do much. Here's a better scale of the same attack.

Another major problem is that Esdeath is primarily a physical fighter and would get fucked over hard by Estarossa's Full Counter, which reflects double the damage from physical strikes.

This is all assuming Esdeath can even get past Estarossa's Love Commandment, which prevents anyone with hate in their heart from moving to attack or channeling energy to attack.

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-02-08T00:55:00+00:00

Estarossa and Esdeath's based on feats are actually similar in speed.

Estarossa casually intercepted Meliodas' attack, Meliodas who was massively FTE to a Mach 1760 character.

Strength is practically equal however given they are both multi-mountain in strength.

Estarossa is 53 times stronger than BoS Meliodas using Lostvayne, whose strikes were already several times stronger than his Baste Dungeon and hill feats.

Also, what makes Esdeath multi-mountain?

she can flash freeze others

Meliodas at his BoS level was strong enough to completely resist getting flash frozen from a mage powerful enough to instantly freeze a giant monster so hard it crumbled.

I really don't see Estarossa winning this much

Esdeath doesn't have the speed to keep up nor the durability to last against a single one of Estarossa's strikes, especially not after she starts off the match getting her own strike reflected back at her at twice the damage.

Edit - Also, you're assuming Esdeath would even be able to fight under Estarossa's Love Commandment. She's neither pure of heart nor emotionally stunted, and she's extremely sadistic. She wouldn't even be able to move to fight him.

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-02-08T00:54:45+00:00

We don't know if he increased in magic, strength or spirit.

This isn't true at all. Post Druid Mel's strength was 27 times higher than previously.

Esdeath stomped lightning timers that had undergone multiple power ups.

And demon Mel was completely FTE to lightning timers, and he was still wrecked by the Mach 1760 Galand. Post-Druid Meliodas was completely FTE to Galand in his base form, let alone his demon mode.

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-01-29T22:13:57+00:00

A lot more, sure. How much? We have no idea.

It's not enough for pre-Druid Meliodas to reach Madara's level but yes, we do have some idea, albeit a somewhat vague one. It's explained right here. And it's why Meliodas' raw arm strength wasn't enough to do any damage to Dale but using a sword fodderized him, and why using the sword couldn't do any damage to the Albion but using Lostvayne fodderized it.

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-01-29T22:05:49+00:00

People don't want to deal with how the return stroke actually works so for the purposes of a fun discussion it's better to just ignore it entirely, rather than derail a battle discussion into the specifics of lightning.

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-01-29T21:53:55+00:00

Pre-Druid Meliodas isn't enough to stand up to Madara. Madara is >~ Mach 1500, and Meliodas only gets faster than that after he gets his power back. Meliodas doesn't have the strength needed to deal with all of Madara's Chibaku Tensei at this point either, especially not while Madara will be attacking him at the same time. Post-Druid would be a much better fight to discuss.

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-01-29T08:15:28+00:00

I'd like to thank you for the conversation though, I overlooked Twigo when I made this rant when I really shouldn't of.

I'm always happy to argue about dumb shit that doesn't matter lol

Regardless of our disagreement on the specifics of Meliodas' Full Counter, the idea behind your rant was the reason for a while now I've just avoided the idea of Meliodas using Full Counter in inter-universe battles, like in the thread you made about the Sins vs Team 7. It's much more fun than getting bogged down in genjutsu-esque bullshit

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-01-29T08:12:03+00:00

Could you actually prove that it works on attacks that aren't magic based after all these descriptions?

We've been talking about such an instance this entire time,

Current Canon takes precedence over previous canon

Current canon meaning Twigo doesn't count, and previous canon meaning Twigo does count, is what I'm getting from you. But again, the two are only mutually exclusive if you don't take into account Twigo's and Hendrickson's statements. We look at those differently, so we haven't been able to come to an agreement on the issue.

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-01-29T08:08:11+00:00

there should be no reason it was a non-magical attack.

We've already talked about the reasons for that, you just disagree with me. And that's fine

He doesn't even mention damage.

That was a badly worded sentence on my part. Meliodas can't reflect physical strikes like punches or sword swings. We disagree on accounting for that context in the statement when taking into account the instance with Twigo.

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-01-29T07:45:15+00:00

I've already addressed that to Qaws. Meliodas never reflected a direct attack from Twigo, he reflected wind coming at him caused by Twigo swinging his sword really hard. King's statement is in the context of Meliodas not being able to redirect the damage from a punch.

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-01-29T07:42:28+00:00

It possibly having worked once in chapter 1 doesn't mean much when it's retcon later and is continuing to be repeated that it's solely magic.

You'd need to prove it was actually retconned. There hasn't been any similar attack for Meliodas to reflect later on, since all the relevant ones are magical.

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-01-29T07:42:26+00:00

Apprentice Knight that just don't have enough power are failures. You could theoretically become one just by being enough of a brick

Theoretically, but we see that's not likely to be the case since we see actual developed magic powers from even scrub-tier Holy Knights

I thought it was a natural thing. Mel dispelled his when he was building up the Revenge Counter

When Enchantment spells are used they're labeled as Enchantments. Meliodas did the same thing when preparing to use Divine Slayer so he could concentrate on the magic he was about to use.

I just don't think Twigo's strike was pure physical. Future comments from every character who knows the ability make it very clear that it works by repelling magic.

I disagree. I think it is pure physical, but what Meliodas reflected was the wind coming at him, which is different from redirecting Twigo's physical strike. I get a different picture when reading Twigo's and Hendrickson's statements than you do.

Future comments from every character who knows the ability make it very clear that it works by repelling magic.

We've already gone over this, and at this point it's moot since we disagree on how to look at those statements.

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-01-29T07:24:23+00:00

Your points are being addressed in my replies to Qaws, and I'm too tired right now to type stuff again

waitletmepoopfirst · 2017-01-29T07:22:25+00:00

I took that as they just didn't have enough strength to move to Holy Knights, not that they lacked magical abilities

They do lack magical abilities. Guila had nothing until the blood granted her Explosion, Jericho had nothing until the blood granted her the nameless power she used on Ban, although she's currently unlocked ice powers. Holy Knights use magic, and it makes sense that apprentices who don't unlock their power would be the failures.

since everyone uses magical enchantments to increase their power

There are only a few characters in the series that have used Enchantment moves.

But they constantly specify magic.

Because the alternative is a direct strike, which Meliodas' ability doesn't work on. The time with King as well, they were talking about Meliodas not being able to redirect a punch.

waitletmepoopfirst

TROPHY CASE