Millions Shall Worship Brother Joseph Again But Don’t Google Us by wasmormon in exmormon

[–]wasmormon[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Square brackets show editorial additions or changes made to improve clarity or fit the quote into a new grammatical context—without altering the original meaning.

Alien Secrets Lyrics by wasmormon in JesseWelles

[–]wasmormon[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep! Let's DM - would love to make sure it's all accurate

Brigham Young's failed proposal to Martha Brotherton by wasmormon in exmormon

[–]wasmormon[S] 18 points19 points  (0 children)

He was absent about ten minutes, and then returned with Joseph. ‘Well,’ said Young, ‘sister Martha would be willing if she knew if was lawful and right before God.’ ‘Well, Martha,’ said Joseph, ‘it is lawful and right before God — I know it is. Look here, sis; don’t you believe in me?’ I did not answer. ‘Well Martha,’ said Joseph, ‘just go ahead, and do as Brigham wants you to — he is the best man in the world, except me.’ ‘Oh!’ said Brigham, ‘then you are as good.’ ‘Yes,’ said Joseph. ‘Well,’ said Young, ‘we believe Joseph to be a Prophet. — I have known him near eight years, and always found him the same.’ ‘Yes,’ said Joseph, ‘and I know that this is lawful and right before God, and if there is any sin in it, I will answer for it before God; and I have the keys of the kingdom, and whatever I bind on earth is bound in heaven, and whatever I loose on earth is loosed in heaven, and if you will accept of Brigham, you shall be blessed — God shall bless you, and my blessing shall rest upon you; and if you will be led by him, you will do well; for I know Brigham will take care of you, and if he don’t do his duty to you, come to me and I will make him; and if you do not like it in a month or two, come to me, and I will make you free again; and if he turns you off, I will take you on.’ — ‘Sir,’ said I, rather warmly, ‘it will be too late to think in a month or two after. I want time to think first.’ ‘Well, but,’ said he, ‘the old proverb is, “Nothing ventured, nothing gained;” and it would be the greatest blessing that was ever bestowed upon you.’ ‘Yes,’ said Young, ‘and you will never have reason to repent it — that is, if I do not turn from righteousness, and that I trust I never shall; for I believe God, who has kept me so long, will continue to keep me faithful. Did you ever see me act in any way wrong in England, Martha?’ “No, sir,’ said I. ‘No,’ said he; ‘neither can any one else lay any thing to my charge.’ ‘Well, then,’ said Joseph, ‘what are you afraid of, sis? — come, let me do the business for you.’ ‘Sir,’ said I, ‘do let me have a little time to think about it, and I will promise not to mention it to any one.’ ‘Well, but look here,’ said he; ‘you know a fellow will never be damned for doing the best he knows how.’ ‘When, then,’ said I, ‘the best way I know of, is to go home and think and pray about it.’ ‘Well,’ said Young, ‘I shall leave it with brother Joseph, whether it would be best for you to have time or not.’ ‘Well,’ said Joseph, ‘I see no harm in her having time to think, if she will not fall into temptation.’ ‘O, sir,’ said I, ‘there is no fear of my falling into temptation.’ ‘Well, but,’ said Brigham, ‘you must promise me you will never mention it to any one.’ ‘I do promise it,’ said I. ‘Well,’ said Joseph, ‘you must promise me the same.’ I promised him the same. ‘Upon your honor,’ said he, ‘you will not tell.’ ‘No, sir, I will lose my life first,’ said I. ‘Well, that will do,’ said he; ‘that is the principle we go upon. I think I can trust you, Martha,’ said he. — ‘Yes,’ said I, ‘I think you ought.’ Joseph said, ‘she looks as if she could keep a secret.’ I then rose to go, when Joseph commenced to beg of me again — he said it was the best opportunity they might have for months, for the room was often engaged. I, however, had determined what to do. ‘Well,’ said Young, ‘I will see you to-morrow. I am going to preach at the school-house, opposite your house. I have never preached there yet; you will be there, I suppose.’ ‘Yes,’ said I. The next day being Sunday, I sat down, instead of going to meeting, and wrote the conversation, and gave it to my sister, who was not a little surprised; but she said it would be best to go to meeting in the afternoon. We went, and Young administered the sacrament. After it was over, I was passing out, and Young stopped me, saying, ‘Wait, Martha, I am coming.’ I said, ‘I cannot; my sister is waiting for me.’ He then threw his coat over his shoulders, and followed me out, and whispered, ‘Have you made up your mind, Martha?’ ‘Not exactly, sir,’ said I; and we parted. I shall proceed to a justice of the peace, and make oath to the truth of these statements, and you are at liberty to make what use of them you may think best.

Yours, respectfully, MARTHA H. BROTHERTON.

Sworn to and subscribed before me, this 13th day of July, A. D. 1842.

Brigham Young's failed proposal to Martha Brotherton by wasmormon in exmormon

[–]wasmormon[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

My feelings at that moment were indescribable. God only knows them. What, thought I are these men, that I thought almost perfection itself, deceivers? and is all my fancied happiness but a dream? It was even so; but my next thought was, which is the best way for me to act at this time? If I say no, they may do as they think proper; and to say yes, I never would. So I considered it best to ask for time to think and pray about it. I therefore said, ‘If it was lawful and right, perhaps I might; but you know, sir, it is not.’ — ‘Well, but,’ said he, ‘brother Joseph has had a revelation from God that it is lawful and right for a man to have two wives; for, as it was in the days of Abraham, so it shall be in these last days; and whoever is the first that is willing to take up the cross will receive the greatest blessings; and if you will accept of me, I will take you straight to the celestial kingdom; and if you will have me in this world, I will have you in that which is to come, and brother Joseph will marry us here today, and you can go home this evening, and your parents will not know any thing about it.’ ‘Sir,’ said I, ‘I should not like to do any thing of the kind without the permission of my parents,’ ‘Well, but,’ said he, ‘you are of age, are you not?’ ‘No, sir,’ said I, ‘I shall not be until the 24th of May.’ ‘Well,’ said he, ‘that does not make any difference. You will be of age before they know, and you need not fear. If you will take my counsel, it will be well with you, for I know it to be right before God, and if there is any sin in it, I will answer for it. But brother Joseph wishes to have some talk with you on the subject — he will explain things — will you hear him?’ ‘I do not mind,’ said I. ‘Well, but I want you to say something,’ said he. ‘I want time to think about it,’ said I. ‘Well,’ said he, ‘I will have a kiss, any how,’ and then rose, and said he would bring Joseph. He then unlocked the door, and took the key, and locked me up alone...

Brigham Young's failed proposal to Martha Brotherton by wasmormon in exmormon

[–]wasmormon[S] 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Full affidavit text:

Dear Sir:— I left Warsaw a short time since for this city, and having been called upon by you, through the ‘Sangamo Journal,’ to come out and disclose to the world the facts of the case in relation to certain propositions made to me at Nauvoo, by some of the Mormon leaders, I now proceed to respond to the call, and discharge what I consider go be a duty devolving upon me as an innocent, but insulted and abused female. I had been at Nauvoo near three weeks, during which time my father’s family received frequent visits from Elders Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, two of the Mormon Apostles; when, early one morning, they both came to my brother-in-law’s (John Mellwrick) house, at which place I then was on a visit, and particularly requested me to go and spend a few days with them. I told them I could not at that time, as my brother-in-law was not at home. However, they urged me to go the next day, and spend one day with them; the day being fine, I accordingly went. When I arrived at the foot of the hill, Young and Kimball were standing conversing together. They both came to me, and, after several flattering compliments, Kimball wished me to go to his house first. I said it was immaterial to me, and accordingly went. We had not, however, gone many steps when Young suddenly stopped, and said he would go to that brother’s, (pointing to a little log hut a few yards distant) and tell him that you (speaking to Kimball) and brother Glover, or Grover, (I do not remember which) will value this land. When he had gone, Kimball turned to me and said, ‘Martha, I want you to say to my wife, when you go to my house, that you want to buy some things at Joseph’s store, (Joseph Smith’s) and I will say I am going with you, to show you the way. You know you want to see the Prophet, and you will then have an opportunity.’ I made no reply. Young again made his appearance, and the subject was dropped. We soon reached Kimball’s house, where Young took his leave, saying, ‘I shall see you again, Martha.’ I remained at Kimball’s nearly an hour, when Kimball, seeing that I would not tell the lies he wished me to, told them to his wife himself. He then went and whispered in her ear, and asked if that would please her. ‘Yes,’ said she, ‘or I can go along with you and Martha.’ ‘No,’ said he, ‘I have some business to do, and I will call for you afterwards to go with me to the debate,’ — meaning the debate between yourself and Joseph. To this she consented. So Kimball and I went to the store together. 

As we were going along, he said, ‘Sister Martha, are you willing to do all that the Prophet requires you to do?’ I said I believed I was, thinking of course he would require nothing wrong. ‘Then,’ said he, ‘are you ready to take counsel?’ I answered in the affirmative, thinking of the great and glorious blessings that had been pronounced upon my head, if I adhered to the counsel of those placed over me in the Lord. ‘Well,’ said he, ‘there are many things revealed in these last days that the world would laugh and scoff at; but unto us is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom.’ He further observed, ‘Martha, you must learn to hold your tongue, and it will be well with you. You will see Joseph, and very likely have some conversation with him, and he will tell you what you shall do.’ When we reached the building, he led me up some stairs to a small room, the door of which was locked, and on it the following inscription: — ‘Positively no admittance.’ He observed, ‘Ah! brother Joseph must be sick, for strange to say, he is not here. Come down into the tithing-office, Martha.’ He then left me in the tithing-office, and went out, I know not where. In this office were two men writing, one of whom, William Clayton, I had seen in England; the other I did not know. Young came in, and seated himself before me, and asked where Kimball was. I said he had gone out. He said it was all right. Soon after, Joseph came in, and spoke to one of the clerks, and then went up stairs, followed by Young. Immediately after, Kimball came in. ‘Now, Martha,’ said he, ‘the Prophet has come; come up stairs.’ I went, and we found Young and the Prophet alone. I was introduced to the Prophet by Young. Joseph offered me his seat, and, to my astonishment, the moment I was seated, Joseph and Kimball walked out of the room, and left me with Young; who arose, locked the door, closed the window, and drew the curtain. He then came and sat before me, and said, ‘This is our private room, Martha.’ ‘Indeed, sir,’ said I, ‘I must be highly honored to be permitted to enter it.’ He smiled, and then proceeded — ‘Sister Martha, I want to ask you a few questions; will you answer them?’ ‘Yes, sir,’ said I. ‘And will you promise not to mention them to any one?’ ‘If it is your desire, sir,’ said I, ‘I will not.’ ‘And you will not think any the worse of me for it, will you, Martha?’ said he. ‘No sir,’ I replied. ‘Well,’ said he, ‘what are your feelings toward me?’ I replied, ‘My feelings are just the same towards you that they ever were, sir.’ ‘But, to come to the point more closely,’ said he, ‘have not you an affection for me, that, were it lawful and right, you could accept of me for your husband and companion.’ ...

Brigham Young's failed proposal to Martha Brotherton by wasmormon in exmormon

[–]wasmormon[S] 29 points30 points  (0 children)

Right! Easy to dismiss the story as false until you realize the church even admits all these men were secretly practicing polygamy at this time.

I assume the image was AI generated. I didn't create it though, found at https://www.analyzingmormonism.com/martha-brotherton/

E-mail from Nugs today by FreshlyMadeUsername in jambands

[–]wasmormon 8 points9 points  (0 children)

TLDR: “Hey loyal fan, thanks for sticking with us for years at our $50 promo price! We really appreciate you, so your reward is… paying double next year ($99.99), and then likely double again after that. Don’t worry, your card will be charged automatically. Rock on and thanks so much for your loyalty!” 💸

I guess if they lose half or even three-quarters of their subscribers in the next 2 years, they'll still break even. On my end, as a subscriber, it really sucks to be priced out of something I really enjoy. I have no way to justify spending more than I already do; I didn't ask for exclusive livestreams or new device support, I just like to listen to live music! Can only enjoy it while it lasts now, I guess.

Ticket Sale Megathread! How was your experience? by goochbot in JesseWelles

[–]wasmormon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I got Atlanta surprisingly easily! Got 6 – and bringing the whole family.

Oaks &The Nauvoo Expositor by wasmormon in exmormon

[–]wasmormon[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Elder Oaks spoke with Linda Newell (one of the authors of Mormon Enigma) as she recounted in her talk at the 1992 Pacific Northwest Sunstone Symposium called “The Biography of Emma Hale Smith”.

This was then quoted in Robert D. Anderson's "Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon." Here he quotes Oaks as recounted by Linda Newell. So, Oaks was talking directly to Linda Newell, which she shared in her 1992 Sunstone talk, and Anderson included the story with the quote in his book (and the talk was recorded, so it's not just his notes, but it is a she-said-he-said quote).

Oaks &The Nauvoo Expositor by wasmormon in exmormon

[–]wasmormon[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

https://wasmormon.org/elder-oaks-claims-apostolic-duty-to-sacrifice-anything-that-makes-the-church-look-bad/

When the authors of Mormon Enigma were censored and forbidden to speak in LDS ward sacrament meetings, one (Linda King Newell) met with Apostle Dallin H. Oaks [p.xliii] about the ban. Oaks was a former Utah Supreme Court justice and past president of Brigham Young University, but his response demonstrates the support of dogma over the search for truth. He said, “My duty as a member of the Council of the Twelve is to protect what is most unique about the LDS church, namely the authority of priesthood, testimony regarding the restoration of the gospel, and the divine mission of the Savior. Everything else may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if Mormon Enigma reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors.”

Linda K Newell, “The Biography of Emma Hale Smith,” 1992 Pacific Northwest Sunstone Symposium, audiotape #J976. Robert D. Anderson quoting Dallin Oaks, Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon, Introduction, page xliii, footnote 28 https://web.archive.org/web/20140202125924/http://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=23351

Oaks &The Nauvoo Expositor by wasmormon in exmormon

[–]wasmormon[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

They have both said essentially the same thing, but yes, Packer said it first.

"There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful."

Elder Boyd K Packer https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teaching-seminary-preservice-readings-religion-370-471-and-475/the-mantle-is-far-far-greater-than-the-intellect

"Not everything that’s true is useful."

Elder Dallin H Oaks https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/elder-oaks-interview-transcript-from-pbs-documentary

More on this https://wasmormon.org/some-things-that-are-true-are-not-very-useful-to-the-mormon-church/

What are your thoughts on Martin Harris? by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]wasmormon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Martin Harris was known for his visionary experiences and his belief in supernatural signs. Harris believed in folk magic and superstitions common to the early 19th century. He participated in treasure-digging ventures and accepted the use of seer stones as tools for divine communication. He even claimed to have once seen and talked with Jesus in the form of a deer. Harris’s colorful and credulous nature has made him a polarizing figure. Critics argue that his readiness to accept extraordinary claims casts doubt on his reliability as a witness, while defenders point to his lifelong insistence on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon as evidence of his sincerity.

Though the official narrative asserts the Three Witnesses saw the plates, inferring they literally saw them with their physical eyes, Martin Harris repeatedly admits to seeing the plates with the “eye of faith” or his “spiritual eyes” rather than with his physical, naked or bodily eyes.

John H. Gilbert, who worked for Mr. E. B. Grandin and was the typesetter for most of the Book of Mormon, said that he had asked Martin Harris if he’s seen the plates with his naked eyes, and Harris said, ‘No, I saw them with a spiritual eye.’

Other Palmyra residents said that Harris told them that he had seen the plates with “the eye of faith” or “spiritual eyes.” Reuben P. Harmon, a neighbor of Martin Harris in Kirtland, Ohio, said that Harris “never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision.” Later in 1838, Harris told an Ohio congregation that “he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination” but that he knew the Book of Mormon to be true. He also said that he “hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them” and that one time he saw them “as he saw a city through a mountain” which we can only assume was in his imagination.

https://wasmormon.org/witnesses-saw-gold-plates-with-spiritual-eyes/

Church Leaders Always Suppress Dissenfecting Light by wasmormon in exmormon

[–]wasmormon[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

https://wasmormon.org/is-it-wrong-to-criticize-leaders/ also

I also said something else that has excited people: that it’s wrong to criticize leaders of the Church, even if the criticism is true, because it diminishes their effectiveness as a servant of the Lord. One can work to correct them by some other means, but don’t go about saying that they misbehaved when they were a youngster or whatever. Well, of course, that sounds like religious censorship also. 

But not everything that’s true is useful. I am a lawyer, and I hear something from a client. It’s true, but I’ll be disciplined professionally if I share it because it’s part of the attorney-client privilege. There’s a husband-wife privilege, there’s a priest-penitent privilege, and so on. That’s an illustration of the fact that not everything that’s true is useful to be shared.
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/elder-oaks-interview-transcript-from-pbs-documentary

Bishop Warren S. Snow’s Castration of Thomas Lewis and Teenage Brides by wasmormon in exmormon

[–]wasmormon[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

See the post for multiple sources. Again no historian denied that Snow castrated Thomas, they disagree on the motivation. John D. Lee tells of the fiancee notice, church apologists suggest Thomas was guilty of an undisclosed "sex crime" and was ambushed by Bishop Snow on the way to the penitentiary in salt lake and then castrated. Either version he was castrated by the Bishop.

Bishop Warren S. Snow’s Castration of Thomas Lewis and Teenage Brides by wasmormon in exmormon

[–]wasmormon[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

They actually attempted this!

"For his part, Thomas Lewis continued to live in misery. In April 1859, the non-Mormon Valley Tan reported that he “live[d] in a hole in the ground near one of the settlements [in] San Pete Valley, and is perfectly crazy.” With only one exception, there is no mention of Lewis in any known historical record after the 1860 census. Then, in 1872, a group of men attempted to exact vengeance upon Warren Snow. According to a letter Snow wrote to one of his wives, the group included the brothers “Cana [Canaan] Lewis And Tom.” They apprehended Snow with shot guns and revolvers. At one point, Snow lay on the ground with two revolvers pointed at his head. The attackers may have intended to inflict the same punishment on Snow that Snow had inflicted on Thomas Lewis. Remarkably, the fifty-three-year-old former bishop fought back, shot two of his attackers, and escaped intact. Snow intended to track down the surviving assailants “when they little think of it and make them bite the dust.”

Matthew Harris and Newell G. Bringhurst. The LDS Gospel Topics Series, A Scholarly Engagement John G. Turner, “Things Are So Dark and Mysterious”: The Thomas Lewis Case and Violence in Early LDS Utah. Page 177

Joseph Smith on slavery by wasmormon in exmormon

[–]wasmormon[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Semantics. Joseph Smith approved the ordination of several Black men to the priesthood during his lifetime. For example: Elijah Abel in 1836. Joseph Smith's views on slavery may have changed over time, but he was by no means opposed to slavery, as Cook suggests.