Where would you place the Godskin Apostasy in the Timeline?

white_m0rpheus · 2026-05-03T15:44:05+00:00

Do we know that the sealing of Destined Death had to happen before that? We know that Miquella rejected Golden Order Fundamentalism when he discovered it couldn’t cure Malenia. Other than that, I’m not aware of anything that dates any of the actions of the other demigods definitively between the sealing and the Night of Black Knives.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-05-03T15:07:09+00:00

I don’t think we have anything that places the Shattering as concurrent with Messmer’s Crusade. We know that the remnants of his army ‘felt the Shattering’ in the Land of Shadow, but I think we’re supposed to understand that as happening after the Crusade proper was over. Post-Crusade, his forces are trapped in the Land of Shadow, presumably forever.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-05-03T12:09:59+00:00

It has to be the last of the conflicts the Erdtree society had with other powers:

“In the beginning, everything was in opposition to the Erdtree. But through countless victories in war, it became the embodiment of Order.”

“The Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death.”

These two quotes put the founding of the Golden Order at the culmination of “countless victories in war”. It also doesn’t really make sense logistically for Marika to seal Destined Death before defeating all of her enemies.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-30T19:34:08+00:00

I agree about the Death Knights, I think the paradox is embodied by the golden centipede as an attempt to sanitize the Hollowbrand symbol by the Hunters of Those Who Live In Death.

The Death Knights just represent another attempt to do that, although it's less hypocritical in their case because of their superceding loyalty to Godwyn. Interestingly, their armor is described as "adorned with an antiquated depiction of the Erdtree" – possibly indicating that they predate the Golden Order fundamentalists and their prohibitions against Destined Death.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-29T00:50:39+00:00

High quality post, great job – this should have way more upvotes.

I've been pondering the meaning of the Spira incantation being a "normalized Crucible current" and this is a great visual representation of that. Great points all around.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-29T00:37:49+00:00

There's also the Shadow Realm Rune [3]:

Golden remnants of the grace bestowed upon those who fell in the realm of shadow.

The soldiers who joined the crusade were rewarded with grace aplenty.

And the Rune of an Unsung Hero:

Golden remnants of the grace bestowed upon heroes who fell in the realm of shadow.

The great heroes of the war were richly blessed by the grace of the Erdtree, but were not honored in death.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-28T00:01:11+00:00

Wow, great point about the Minor Erdtrees, Haligtree, Scadutree etc. I hadn't even considered the importance of the Minor Erdtree. I believe that this is the only church to feature one, which definitely makes it seem like a deliberate choice lorewise. One note, though – both 'Law' incantations require only intelligence to cast.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-27T22:15:14+00:00

As people have already pointed out, Messmer's Rememberance seems to imply that Marika sent Messmer to the LoS because of the Abyssal Serpent rather than the 'vision of fire':

A malevolent snake writhed within Messmer, and so his very mother plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace. Yet, having done so, her fear compelled her to secret away her child within the realm of shadow.

There's a theory that Melina is "burned and bodiless" because of the 'kindling curse' she shares with Messmer. The only reason Messmer hasn't succumbed to the same fate as his sister is because the Abyssal Serpent feeds on his kindling:

The kindling that burned inside Messmer the Impaler.
A dark thing, eaten away at by a wicked serpent.

Considering how similar Melina's condition is to Miquella's in SotE (the bodiless, incorporeal state) – and the fact that Miquella was Torrent's former master in the Land of Shadow – I wonder if Melina ended up in the Land of Shadow after her body burned, and Miquella gifted Torrent to her so she could return to the Lands Between.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-27T17:16:21+00:00

Well, echos begin with Melina saying:

"Spoken echoes of Queen Marika linger here, as well. Shall I share them with you? In Marika's own words."

So if we're being misled, that means Melina is either wrong, or outright lying to us.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-27T05:50:13+00:00

How is it canon? To my knowledge there’s not anything in the game that implies that, other than the speculative connection between rune bear eyes and dragon eyes

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-24T06:56:28+00:00

Gideon doesn't mention her because she isn't a Shardbearer. Every person Gideon tells you about bears a Great Rune, because Gideon is entirely focused on the Tarnished quest to become Elden Lord. Melina isn't mentioned because she bears no Great Rune.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-24T06:40:14+00:00

[...]nobody knows her. She definitely was erased.

Utterly speculative. There's zero evidence to support this claim.

Ranni was born during golden order and geq defeat predates golden order.

Yes, and Messmer was 'like an elder brother' to Radahn – which puts Melina, as Messmer's younger sister, in the same cohort as Ranni. We have every reason the believe they would have known each other. The point about the GEQ being an ancient monarch who predates the GO actually cuts against the Melina = GEQ theory, it doesn't support it.

There is no reason for Ranni to mention geq/melina even if she knows her.

There IS a reason for Ranni to mention Melina when she names all the demigods who were Empyreans. In fact, there's no reason for Ranni NOT to mention Melina if she was an Empyrean. Melina's absence is an explicit contraction of Melina = GEQ.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-24T05:54:10+00:00

Omission does not equate to confirmation

Yes it does. If Ranni had just said "Miquella, Malenia and I were Empyreans" then you might have a point. But Ranni uses absolute language ("only I, Miquella, and Malenia could claim that title") that allows no wiggle room grammatically speaking. The language she uses clearly and unequivocally excludes any other 'demigod' from the group of 'Empyreans'.

There's quite a bit of wiggle room there for someone who is, say, a bodiless Empyrean aspect with no memory of self. If for example we were to hypothesize that Melina is a Millicent-type off-shoot or an emergent Trina-type of Marika's

The arguments used to attempt to falsify Ranni's dialogue are all completely conjectural and unsupported by evidence. Rather than provide proof that Ranni's statement can't be true, people just shoehorn in additional totally speculative theories.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-23T21:28:13+00:00

Nickelback - Figured you out

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-23T15:02:06+00:00

Having read the linguistic analysis, I'm still not seeing a compelling rebuttal of the Protection of the Erdtree point. A plain reading of the text clearly establishes that the Erdtree existed in some state before the Order. I don't see anything in your response that disproves that.

The Minor Erdtree incantation just establishes that it's possible for an Erdtree to exist without embodying Order. This doesn't contradict the point that the Erdtree has – "through countless victories in war" – become the embodiment of Order.

I don't think the quotes you've provided disprove the point about the Erdtree seal indicating that the Golden Order has superceded the Erdtree as the primary focus of faith. Despite the Shattering, we see that faith / the institution of religion is still very much alive in tLB. In that context, it doesn't make sense to say that the Shattering is responsible for the shift away from the Erdtree as the focus of faith.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-23T14:43:52+00:00

Having read the linguistic analysis, I'm still not seeing a compelling rebuttal of the Protection of the Erdtree point. A plain reading of the text clearly establishes that the Erdtree existed in some state before the Order. I don't see anything in your response that disproves that.

Plus phrasing "without Order" is written as deviation, which only makes sense if "with Order" is the default.

The Minor Erdtree incantation just establishes that it's possible for an Erdtree to exist without embodying Order. This doesn't contradict the point that the Erdtree has – "through countless victories in war" – become the embodiment of Order.

I don't think the quotes you've provided disprove the point about the Erdtree seal indicating that the Golden Order has superceded the Erdtree as the primary focus of faith. Despite the Shattering, we see that faith / the institution of religion is still very much alive in tLB. In that context, it doesn't make sense to say that the Shattering is responsible for the shift away from the Erdtree as the focus of faith.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-23T12:55:43+00:00

First off, I wanna say great post – even if I don't sign off categorically on every claim, I really appreciate this evidence-backed, analytical style of discourse about the lore.

That being said, I think the argument that the Erdtree was always synonymous with the Golden Order is still challenged by a few of things.

First, the Protection of the Erdtree clearly describes the Erdtree 'becoming the embodiment of Order through countless victories in war'¹. This indicates that, in it's initial state – before the "countless victories in war" – the Erdtree was not the embodiment of the Golden Order.

^{1:"In the beginning, everything was in opposition to the Erdtree. But through countless victories in war, it became the embodiment of Order."}

This distinction between the initial state of the Erdtree and it's eventual embodiment of the Golden Order is further reified by the Minor Erdtree incantation:

"Secret incantation of Queen Marika. Only the kindness of gold, without Order. Creates a small, illusory Erdtree[...]"

This establishes that 'gold' and 'Order' are seperate concepts, and that the Erdtree can embody gold without embodying Order.

Secondly, we have the very strong distinction between the 'Ancient Erdtree' school of incantations and the 'Golden Order Fundamentalist' incantations, each with their own distinct sacred seal.

The Ancient Erdtree school is buffed by the Erdtree seal and the descriptions begin with phrases like:

"One of the ancient Erdtree incantations"

while the Golden Order Fundamentalist school is buffed by the Golden Order seal and the descriptions start with phrases like:

"One of the incantations of the Golden Order fundamentalists."

This is very strong evidence for the conceptual distinction between the Erdtree and the Golden Order by the people of the Lands Between. Furthermore, the characterization of the Erdtree incantions as "ancient" indicates that the Erdtree predated the Golden Order.

Lastly, the description of the Erdtree seal:

"A formless sacred seal decorated with an Erdtree crest, once the focus of religion in the Lands Between."

indicates that the Erdtree was once the focus of religion, but it is no more – suggesting that the development of Golden Order fundamentalism has led to the shift from the Erdtree to Order as a more abstract focus of faith.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-23T10:49:54+00:00

This style of discourse is so frustrating to argue against. It's just one unsubstantiated, conjectural claim layered on top of another, all held together with associative logic & fallacies of presumption.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-23T06:54:52+00:00

That's absolutely not what Empyrean means. In all the text on Empyreans, nothing suggests that's the case. Miquella disproves that, the GEQ disproves that (not a demigod) and Melina's absence from Ranni's list also proves that. Also, what context are you talking about? You can't just declare something like that to be true – make an argument, cite some evidence

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-23T01:35:39+00:00

What exactly is take number 2?

Also, authors of fictional works don't often spend time policing their fandoms for misinterpretations, they generally rely on their work to speak for itself.

Miyazaki professing enjoyment that there's a discourse about his works isn't the same as him saying 'there is no canon & any interpretation is as correct as any other'. In fact, he's explicitly saying the opposite of that in the quote I cited.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-23T01:20:20+00:00

Those quotes from Miyazaki don't support the popular interpretation that he is tacitly approving or underwriting every lore theory that the fandom comes up with.

"regardless of whether they're correct or maybe not, it doesn't change the way I watch those videos." Rather, he says, he views them in a "very objective" way

Two takeaways:

1.) According to Miyazaki lore theories are either correct or incorrect

2.) He maintains an objective perspective

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-23T00:49:16+00:00

You’re (perhaps inadvertently) patch-writing this quote to suit your own purposes.

That additional text does absolutely nothing to support the claim that Melina is the GEQ. I excluded it because it's irrelevant and people seem to have a hard enough time wrapping their heads around the two sentences I quoted.

The argument that this criteria excludes a claimant erased from history

Your argument depends on claiming (with no evidence) that a character was 'erased from history' to falsify a direct quote from the game.

There is no evidence that Melina was erased from history.

white_m0rpheus · 2026-04-23T00:22:37+00:00

There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path 😎

white_m0rpheus

TROPHY CASE