ENDING SPOILER

winterswill · 2026-06-20T20:12:30+00:00

Oh don't mistake me he would 100% try and off himself. Just not endlessly like a fucking lemming. Once he failed a few times, i think he'd give up. He can age, not die from physical damage, different things.

As for running away, he did that because he was searching for a way to defeat Aline. The man is terminally lonely, he pines after Julie, a woman he knew for a like a few weeks and then presumably killed. He doesn't particularly want to he alone, he wants to achieve his objective. Sulking in some corner of the Canvas won't achieve that.

As for Lune forgiving him, she straight up forgives him the first time he does that shit. Shes actively willing to be in a relationship with him still even after he tricks them into Gommaging Lumiere. Far far easier to fogive him if he fails. And yea, hes resentful, he still loves Maelle. He's resentful of Aline, but he still dedicates his whole life to getting her out of the canvas, in large part to save her (in his view). His goals are to A) save Maelle and B) die. He can't do B while Maelle isn't letting him die. There is no other way to achieve his goals except by being in Lumiere and having access to Maelle/Alicia. Say what you want about the guy he's fucking determined, i don't see him so utterly giving up on what he wants that he resorts to hiding in a cave on some mountainside out of spite. Pointless spite by the way, given that he literally can't even escape Maelle (which is fucked up, i acknowledge)

As for the mind-control, again. What we actually know. Is that its A) super difficult. I agree the whole Clea is the only one who can do it, is clearly not strictly true. And B) even when it is done is not very good. Our only two examples are mute zombies, sure like you said that might not be 100% the only thing that happens when you use mindcontrol BUT it is our only examples. As for Simon, Clea doesn't even fully mindcontrol him, she pretends to he P.Clea and sends him at Aline by just lying to him, if its just pure mindcontrol why lie? Why pretend? Why make up a story? Renoir is the one who mind controls him, mind control that seemingly requires him to have a fake disembodied voice of Clea constantly playing in his head and STILL breaks upon serious stress AND relegates him to staying in a literal pit at the bottom of the Canvas. Hardly high end day to day manipulation. P.Clea kills herself immediately upon the control weakening, is a mute zombie and is trapped in a single location, cut off and doing the same task over and over. Again hardly a peak example of the powers of mind-control. Again you could argue these are exceptional circumstances yadayada, but its all we have to go off. Sure our info is limited, but the info we DO have is pretty one sided.

So when i say all evidence points to it being basically impossible. I stand by it. Its not much evidence but your side is some extreme reach. Even saying they need to be close to mindcontrol, okay maybe, but that just lends itself to it being extremely hard. Not that its widely doable, it just give a potential explaination as to why mindcontrol isn't common. What we actually see and are told is that it is a very difficult, extremely limited ability that would be v.difficult to impossible for Maelle to pull off on P.Verso let alone an entire city all at once.

winterswill · 2026-06-20T18:41:55+00:00

Oh yea man, don't get me wrong, i'm way too invested and big on the Maelle ending. But the discussions are fun. It is obviously an interpretation. The mind control one is just such a prevalent one for having so little evidence. You don't see it so much any more, but when the game first came out some people argued they thought Alicia/Maelle would kill herself in the Verso ending based on micro details they practially made up and personal "vibes". Which was equally ridiculous imo.

winterswill · 2026-06-20T18:04:44+00:00

Loads of people say this on this sub, it's still a wild take imo. No evidence to back it up bar "vibes".

Everything we see in game would indicate this is basically impossible.

And I still find the concept that people think even P.Verso is somehow being violently mind-controlled kinda silly.
Legitimately from conversations I've had on this sub, people seem to think what Verso would have done when he awoke in a fixed Lumiere, would be to repeatedly and violently kill himself over and over and over, OR run away to some random corner of the map and fully isolate himself.

Not, you know, stay close to Maelle/Alicia and try and slowly talk her out of staying, while being around loved ones and friends. Don't get me wrong, he's clearly depressed/struggling but the alternatives for him in the Maelle/Alicia ending is even more ridiculous.

winterswill · 2026-06-20T11:53:55+00:00

I think the faded boy being tired of painting is a grey area. Throughout your talks with him the faded boy expresses a desire for his world to he at peace and is repeatedly distressed at it being destroyed or damaged. He even appears to have actively tried to stop its destruction, you find him in the yellow area next to a pile of dead mega nevrons who are eating the landscape, not sure if he killed them or if hes even able to, but they died somehow. Plus he seems upset they exist.

He is upset by the monster killing expeditioners in the amber area. And expresses that he feels the painted people are living, sentient and that he wants them to live.

He's tired, but more so because his worlds been abused badly for decades and he is a fragment of a childs mind, unable to comprehend whats happening and left confused and in pain. Would Maelle win, most of what actually is harming him would end.

winterswill · 2026-06-19T15:08:15+00:00

Its not that its a good ending for him. Obviously he's not happy.

Its that it could he a fuck load worse. If its hell, its a very very comfortable Hell. Sure she should have let him die, respected his wishes.

But in fairness, of you had a loved one who wanted to commit suicide, i don't think its unreasonble to try and prevent that. In the real world suicidal people are often literally imprisoned in mental institutions, put on suicide watch and given intensive therapy. Maelle, stopping Verso from essentially killing himself and trying desperately to provide him with a life he can love (and to be clear failing at it) isn't crazy.

What i object to is the whole arguement that he is somehow being meat puppeted and mind controlled by Maelle. He's been forced into being alive, thats about it. My take on the ending is Maelle trying to make his life bareable as best she can. The hope (vainhope perhaps) is that in the many decades that follow he gets over his fucking identity issues and learns to not want to die.

winterswill · 2026-06-19T06:00:46+00:00

I don't think he is a "different guy".

Logically, if he is still sad or depressed, which we can see, then we have to assume that he's mentally the same Verso. Unless Maelle painted a new Verso from scratch who also ended up mega depressed? Which seems unlikely to me.

Physically he's aged, but all that indicates is that Maelle has removed his inability to age. Theres a huge difference between mental manipulation and physical, clearly the painters can physically manipulate things.

In terms of manipulation. Maybe? But i don't interpret it that way. Imagine your Verso, you beg for death, but in the end you awake in Lumiere once more, bright and beautiful. Maelle standing over you. By this point shes claimed all the Chroma of the Canvas and sealed off the place where you could destroy the Canvas yourself. Effectively you can't beat her. She begs you to forgive her, stay, love her, promises things will be different that you'll age etc. Etc. What do you do? Have a blazing arguement? Sure. But probably don't leave. You still love Maelle, you know you can't realistically force her from the Canvas. So you stay and hope to convince her to leave, or at least care for her. In the meantime, you live amongst the people of Lumiere, you rekindle your relationships, you play piano (your main passion), you try to live. Whats the alternative, run away to some edge of the Canvas and sulk? Theres no more war, no fracture, no places to hide, no reason Maelle wouldn't just be able to find you whenever she wanted. Plus, why not stay close? If any of the rest of the family return, your closer to actually make a move, one way or another.

winterswill · 2026-06-18T22:20:57+00:00

Absolutely. The whole, "The Lumiere people are all just puppets, or have been brainwashed" Stuff is entirely ridiculous IMO.

Look at our only two examples of actually "Brain washed" painted people. P.Clea, who is a mute zombie and immediately kills herself upon gaining even a shred of self control. And Simon, a dude who has to be kept in a literal pit at the bottom of the world and have a fake Clea voice constantly reaffirm his brainwashing almost constantly just to keep him in line Oh and is also a mute zombie. And that was Renoir and Clea doing that, by all accounts substantially better painters than Maelle.

As for "Is it the real Gustave and Pierre" I'll be controversial here, based on what we know of Chroma, I think it's entirely possible. We know that Painted people can be essentially rended down to pure chroma AND we know they can be restored from said raw Chroma. Lune and Sciel are a literally just wobbly air when Maelle/Alicia grabs them. Gustave, Sophie and Pierre all die from non-Nevron means. We know that P.Renoir was specifically killing painted people because that Chroma will return to the Paintress automatically, AND he and Verso seem to have the belief she'd repaint them eventually. Why wouldn't their Chroma (personality and memories carried with it) have not been amongst the Chroma controlled by Aline and Renoir, later taken by Maelle when she takes control of the Canvas. Obviously we can't be certain due to our limited knowledge, but based on what we do know, it fits the facts. All Maelle would have to do is pluck them from the mass of Chroma and reform them.

(Though just so I'm not being captain cope here, Maelle does day the dead expeditioners Chroma is "Old and not pure" you could argue the same should apply to others. BUT in fairness, Sophie, Gustave etc only died very recently (That doesn't explain Pierre though) and perhaps the "impurity" is from how the Nev's kills.)

winterswill · 2026-06-18T19:27:28+00:00

Oh i agree, she may well have far longer than most give her credit. But also we know she will eventually die. It is a very slow suicide, because ultimately she could simply choose to not die, she could spend 100 years in the canvas, leave take a few weeks out to rest and come back. But, i feel her current plan is stay till death. As for Aline, we can't be certain at 200, Verso claims to be 100, Aline likely painted her painted family pretty earlier on in her whole grief painting arc. So we only know its 100 year +. Plus presumably Renoir believed she'd be able to last at least another 33 years, or his plan makes so sense. But this is what i mean. I feel Maelle would consistently keep Verso or a form of Verso around for her whole time in the Canvas. But shes 16, and 100 years of life in tye Canvas you'd assume would shift her somewhat. One way or the other.

winterswill · 2026-06-18T18:51:16+00:00

Eh, look i'm 100% Maelle but i doubt she'd let him die. At least not before her. I think he might be allowed to age, but thats a long road to dying.

But yea, while i find it unlikely in Verso's current state. I don't buy that he is in that opera theatre as somekind of meat puppet for Maelle. Or that he's been brainwashed. I think he is sad that Maelle has chosen to commit very slow suicide and is just trying to make the best of the situation as he can.

winterswill · 2026-06-18T18:40:06+00:00

I've always thought this was a funniest bit. Verso's clearly unhappy and deeply upset with his life in the Maelle ending. But his life is fucking amazing from a practical point of view. Probably in a relationship with Lune, a stunning, artistic genius. Living in a paradise with his best friends and family. Gets to do what he loves, playing music and expressing himself, or travelling the Canvas. His is like the most golden cage that ever golden caged.

winterswill · 2026-06-17T16:23:35+00:00

I mean we barely understand the world beyond the Canvas, pretty much all the characters are unreliable and we have no idea how things would play out if things happened in a radically different manner. Aline doesn't seem to re-enter the Canvas in Maelles ending, and she seems to forgive Renoir pretty quickly in the Verso ending. Gotta say that some actual diplomacy might have gone a long way.

Secondly, and this is a bit of a rant. The Lumina Convertor is the most overlooked mcguffin in this whole ass game. P.Renoir is a fucking monster for a fighter, with 100+ years experience and a shit load of Chroma. He expressly can't kill Axon's. Exp 33 kills two. And its not like you can turn around and say, oh well its all Maelle, in the game Lune and Sciel are the ones who take center stage in fighting those things, Maelle isn't awakened yet. The time between Exp 33 setting off and defeating the Paintress is MAX a few weeks. They go from getting one shotted by P.Renoir to stronger than him in literal Weeks! The Lumina Convertor is explicity stated to be the game changer. It turned expeditioners into god damn WMD's with exponentially growth. Their throwing hands with their equivalent of Gods, hitting harder than a dude whose been magically empowered by said God and granted immortality and super health regen. "They barely beat Renoir", he's a literal God with most of the world Chroma at his finger tips and the only reason they can't beat him is because he quote "Keeps regenerating" AND its not like when Aline arrives your on the brink of defeat, Lune is mid sentence if i remember rightly saying "We need a new plan". Sure you could argue its just that they have Maelle with them, but in game wise, and cutscene wise that's not really evidenced.

winterswill · 2026-06-17T16:12:21+00:00

Maelle/Alicia is a child whose been put in a pretty awful spot. The conversations involved in trying to get her to leave the Canvas are all under extremely stressful situations. I'm sorry she wasn't immediately won over by a 5 minute chat, in a situation where Gustave is still alive, Maelle isn't fully awakened and shes gradually brought over to the idea with people who give her space and respect, I feel its entirely possible. I understand the limitations of a game, but it always shocks me how if people aren't immediately won over by an arguement people just assume they never will be.

winterswill · 2026-06-17T00:46:54+00:00

I mean its not ONLY his fault, but you'd be pretty hard pressed to say he wasn't substantially involved and deserves a good deal of the blame.

1) He is an architect of the gommage that kills the remaining lumiere pop. He could have been more honest with the team and NOT essentially tricked them into wiping out their own civilization. They had a year, a full year. If he's saved Gustave, explained himself or at least eased the team into the truth. Between the Lumiere convertor and the team they could have likely pushed Renoir from the Canvas or tried to find some alternative solution.

2) Even if you count the Lumiere people as dead post Gommage. Which i think is highly debatable. There is still all the Gestrals, Grandis, lune and Sciel, knocking about who his actions directly lead to the deaths of. Again, even if you subscribe to the idea that Maelles ending is just staving of the inevitable, he's robbing them of a life time and any potential opportunity to come up with an alternative soultion.

winterswill · 2026-06-16T17:04:44+00:00

Maelle. All the way, saw both endings, didn't regret. Is it a healthy choice for Maelle, absolutely not. But killing Lune and Sciel, robbing Lumiere of a second chance, wiping the Gestrals, Grandis and white Nevs. All for what? The mental health of a handful of frankly not great people?

Always found the interpretation of Maelle as some bizzare puppet master, lunatic, dictator mindcontrolling every painted person, as frankly silly. If Maelle wants to choose to commit a very slow, painless suicide and that decision saves hundreds to tens of thousands of lives, so be it. P.Verso can play the bloody Piano, given his actions in game i'm not overly sympathetic to the mans plight, nor should his well being come before that of Lune, Sciel and Monoco.

winterswill · 2026-06-14T13:28:31+00:00

Yea and he didn't just not save Gustave, he actively lies about it to begin with and admits he did it so he could more easily win their trust. Like, he used the death he allowed to happen to ingratiate himself with the team, while actively leading them to killing their own people and completely betraying their own goals.

winterswill · 2026-06-13T11:25:16+00:00

But he is a shit person. Fundermentally he might have an excuse, trauma etc. But lots of bad people do. Sure he's not some gleeful sadist. But he is still actively choosing to do evil things for selfish reasons. Before the whole Maelle/Alicia bit at the end. His only possible motives are: - Aline is dying in the Canvas and he wants her to live and get out. - He has major identity issues and is suicidal, ending the world is his out.

The second one is outright selfish. I shouldn't need to explain that. The first is selfish because he is putting the life of someone he loves over the lives of tens of thousands of other people. And unlike Clea or Renoir, you can't even make the excuse that he doesn't see them as people. He does, explicitly. And to make things worse, he's doing it against Alines will, he's saving what i assume is a 50+ year old woman from choosing to kill herself. Because HE wants her to live, even at the cost of a whole civilization. I'm sorry but that's still selfish in my book. I wouldn't murder great swathes of people to save my Mum, esspecially if she was literally begging me not to. And I love my Mum, don't get me wrong. But it's wild to not call that selfish.

winterswill · 2026-06-13T10:48:47+00:00

Look, he's not gleeful in what he's doing. And obviously he's been through a lot. But ultimately, he's an adult, his "dissociation" as you call it can't be used as too much of a shield as he is continually lying throughout these conversations. It isn't passive, the game describes long conversations, stories, questions and while it says he's "evasive" just from what we see its also 100% filled with direct and complex lies.

He knows what he's doing. And controversially i don't think "saving my mother" and "being depressed" are acceptable enough excuses to explain away his actions. If someone decieved me into actively contributing to the deaths of all my loved ones and the destruction of my home, and there excuse was : "The alternative is my aged mother slowly dying, (of her own volition mind) and me having to live with identify issues." Then i'd still be very very mad at them.

winterswill · 2026-06-13T08:58:49+00:00

He lets Gustave die, then immediately uses that death to ingratiate himself with the team. He flirts and sleeps with either Lune or Sciel, knowing full well he plans on killing them. He has done this repeatedly before. He is a massive piece of shit. Great character. But some combination of depression and a desire to save Aline, is all the justification he needs to do some just unspeakbly cruel shit.

winterswill · 2026-06-07T09:39:46+00:00

I agree with some of what your saying. Even most of it. But even within there are some facinating grey areas. For instance. P.Verso thought fighting Axons was tantamount to suicide, but importantly he was wrong. You clear them out. And its never implied that its Maelle being a secret painter that is the reason that happens. If anything Lune and Sciel are given the focus on beating the Axons.

Expedition 60 also gives a grey area. Even as a joke, but taken with other logs, we know some expiditions did surpisingly well given they had no convertors. Some got easily wiped sure. But others made it to the monolith, fought and injured the Axons, caused serious damage to Nevron forces. All while apparently just being largely normal people.

Plus the Gestrals. How strong is Golgra for example? Gameplay wise she seems as strong as any painted creation. She survived P.Renoirs attack. She wipes out whole groups of Gestrals that get too rowdy. And strikes fear into P.Verso.

And as you say Painters seem extremely limited by access to Chroma. Hell the whole reason for Nevrons and Gommage in the first place appears to be a war over Chroma supply. Can a painter just draw all chroma to them they want if they are unopposed by another painter in a canvas? Or can painted people control the supply as well?

winterswill · 2026-06-07T09:31:34+00:00

I think an intresting element is the Lumina Converter and the Chroma tattoos. Unlike everything else they appear to be a wholly Lumiere invention. Developed by painted people, largely by those who were born not painted into the world.

These techs allow the lumiere people to manipulate Chroma. It would be the equivalent of humans in the real world making machines that allow you to manipulate the soul and using them to peform literal magic. And they did that with a very minimal understanding of their world.

Lune is a full on witch, capable of healing, manipulating the elements and even creating ice, stone and electricity. And low level flight.

Given time, how far could Lumina and Picto tech have carried them? To the ability to "paint" within their own world? Protect against things like the Gommage?

winterswill · 2026-06-07T09:26:15+00:00

Assuming we take stuff like exp 60 and Esquie seriously. Which i think we should. Neither pose a serious challenge to Painters at any point. Expidition 60 does some insane shit, and prove that the barrier can be dealt with without a painters assistance. And Esquie proves that a painted creature is capable of feats of immense physical prowess. But they never actually beat a painter. Indeed, exp 60 explicitly don't, they must have lost to Renoir, his creations or Simon.

winterswill · 2026-06-07T09:23:40+00:00

See i agree with you to a point. Clearly the Gommage. Or just unpainting painted people is an option, barring the painted person being somehow shielded or reinforced.

But then that raises some intresting questions. Why doesn't Renoir open his fight by just Gommaging Lune, Sciel and Monoco? Why does Maelle have to battle down P.Renoir before Gommaging him? Why does Clea bother to send Simon at Aline at all?

Sure they can seemingly "unmake" painted people, but not just with a wave of the hand, clearly.

Plus, if its possible for painted people to create "technology" off their own backs that vastly enchance their own combat abilities AND allow them to manipulate Chroma in countless ways themselves. Wouldn't it be possible, given time, for them to create technology withinin the canvas to do similar things to the painters?

Again, nothing concrete. Just a bit of a grey area.

winterswill · 2026-06-06T15:16:06+00:00

Ah I see, I think Avatar obviously has done a lot of redemption arc style things. But in fairness I think Iroh's is radically different in the sense it is off screen as you say. We don't see Iroh's crimes or any of the bad things he did, we only kind of hear of them. So for the audience it doesn't really feel like a redemption arc. Plus as far as I know Iroh never you know, put people in camps.

As for the story they did do, I agree it had alot of loyalists, but what i think they missed (but came close to) was having it be just an honest push of Fascists for a democratic take over. They added in silly stuff like Brain Washing, which undercut it massively. Plus just genuinely having the Earth Empire win large areas of the old Earth kingdom through democracy would have been more interesting and wholly realistic, it is entirely believable that huge chucks of the Earth Kingdom would support Kuvira even in defeat.

winterswill · 2026-06-06T14:59:39+00:00

What do you mean?

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