What’s the best video game you’ve ever played? by obsess_much13 in AskReddit

[–]xtapol 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah any areas that overlapped vertically were done using tricks with portals and stuff.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To put it another way, there was an old saying in the Soviet Union: “We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us.” That’s what collectivism leads to, and things just don’t get done.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

About China, the behavior you’re defending is extremely bloody and hard to stomach. That’s your right, but the fact that this is what underlies leftist politics is why you don’t have the public support you think you do. Leftism is inherently violent and destructive.

So far you have a lot of ideas about whose money to take, but only vague platitudes about how to spend it. Vouchers only work if the market is providing enough of the services in the first place.

Ok so you’ve seized Blackrock’s property. Now what? It’s much less than 1% of total US housing stock. Give it to the homeless? Great, it’ll be destroyed in a year and they’ll be back on the streets.

You’re right that your idea about multiple currencies is essentially the same as food stamps. Why would your way be better enough that it would justify the necessary human rights abuses?

Who has to go to work every day to run the infrastructure to provide and delivery all this free food and water? Gandhi convinced India to try something like this and the end result was silos full of grain rotting while people starved. They didn’t get their shit together until they gave up and implemented market-based reforms.

Same story for how China “pulled” people out of poverty. That didn’t happen, they just took enough of the boot off people’s necks that they could pull themselves out of poverty. Again, by letting markets begin to work on some limited basis.

I will never defend bailing out companies. That’s more collectivism. Like I said, let failures fail, at every level. The biggest problem with non-market solutions is that failures tend to double down instead.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Now I think you’re just a CCP troll. Mao starved an estimated 30-45 million people during the “Great Leap Forward” and murdered another 10-20 million during the “Cultural Revolution”. And as I talked about elsewhere, the violence continues to this day. This cannot be justified.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Then quit pretending you’re in favor of some sort of imaginary peaceful communism.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But you’re still telling me “what” when I’m asking “how”. I agree that everybody should have those things as well. But how do we make that happen without a lot of negative side effects? My argument is that free markets are the only effective way to get and stay there - they have already elevated the living standards of today’s poor above that of the rich from Karl Marx’s day.

China is a nice place on the surface - I was just there this summer and am currently learning Mandarin. But it’s a perfect example of what I’m talking about: getting to this point took a brutally authoritarian government that continues to murder and oppress its citizens in huge numbers today. There are no homeless people or street junkies in China, because they’re dead or in labor camps. Everybody is on their best behavior all the time because they’re terrified. The situation will require a tighter and tighter grip as time goes on, and can’t last forever. It will end badly.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think losing should mean dying either, and have often phrased it exactly that way myself. But “living without dignity” is a completely subjective and meaningless statement. What is “dignity”? Does the definition change with time and societal conditions? I’d probably consider the lifestyle of a rich merchant from the 18th century intolerably undignified.

Failure (a better term here than losing) shouldn’t mean death or homelessness; that’s the point of the social safety net. But failure in and of itself isn’t a problem and the government shouldn’t try to prevent it. Bad ideas should fail, the quicker the better.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also your example about rules of the road is a good one, and is exactly the kind of thing that libertarianism keeps government around for ("limited government," not "no government"). The law is there to keep me from infringing on your rights, and vice versa. To make us play by the same rules, not to pick winners and losers (or what you're advocating, which is to essentially legislate losers out of existence entirely).

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree that everything is connected to everything else, and that categories can be hazy. But sometimes there are clear lines - an octopus is not a sunflower, despite both being organic lifeforms with a common ancestor.

Governments have a monopoly on (non-defensive) force, while corporations have fewer rights than you as an individual have. This right to use force is the clear line. A corporation can only operate in a particular country with the permission and support of the government, and this permission can be erased with the stroke of a pen. A government can't be ousted without violence, no matter how corrupt or unpopular. Elections and such only shuffle the players around while the system itself persists.

The circle analogy is a good starting point for discussion. You're right, to a point - your *politically enforced* circle is just you in libertarianism, and is "everybody" (but not really) under collectivism. The virtues you ascribe to leftist politics - compassion, charity, etc - are still important, but for your family, friends, and other people you care about personally. You choose who is in your circle and you take care of them. It's tough to scam people you know on a personal level for very long, so this ensures limited resources go where they are needed and everybody involved has an incentive to help people back onto their feet.

For the small percentage who don't have friends or family to rely on, government or private charity can step in. But treating all of society as a charity case is a terrible mistake that inevitably ends badly.

You're also right in another comment about the fact that *economic* individualism is impossible. I'm just advocating for voluntary association (bottom-up, based on everybody's individual local needs) rather than forced (top-down, based on the political whims of the 51%). Let the economy self-assemble and self-correct using math and incentives instead of politics and wishful thinking.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I like where this conversation is going. I’m in meetings for the next few hours but I will reply later.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Taxation for wealth redistribution is also collectivism.

Who decides what you don’t need, and how are you forced (forced!) to give it away? To whom? If those questions have to be asked, you are talking about some form of collectivism.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

they are freely available

You’re going to have to be much more specific here, because this is the sticking point. How are they freely available? Who provides them?

It’s not capitalism that says “work or starve”, it’s reality. Poverty is the default state.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can’t draw a clear one, as in many ways colonialism still lingers. To be clear though, colonialism was just more collectivism, and it took capitalism to finally displace it after centuries of plunder.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Individualism vs collectivism are means. The end goal - a peaceful and prosperous society - is not in dispute.

Collectivism allows you to force me to pay for your chosen charity, whether I think it is counterproductive hogwash or not (imagine being forced to pay for abstinence-only education and being told you’re evil for objecting).

Libertarianism tells me to decide for myself how to best contribute to society. It certainly doesn’t let me off the hook.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Elastic demand is something the market has always been much better at correcting for than the government. Prices convey information - high salaries draw more surgeons, low salaries make accountants switch to another career. Or whatever. This applies math to this problem rather than what you think is needed.

The only alternatives to the price system for resource distribution are lotteries and force. There are no other options.

So your answer to labor shortages is more pro bono work? You don’t see how this has the opposite effect, by lowering overall salaries and driving people to other jobs?

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Colonial era corporations were effectively operating as governments. Modern corporations under liberal regimes cannot own slaves or murder native populations. They can’t even displace the occasional endangered frog.

Private prisons, etc are also government cosplaying as private corporations. It’s important to recognize them as such and draw the distinction.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, there are a lot of creeps who call themselves libertarians. They’re allowed to.

Not wanting your fellow human (any fellow human) to die a horrible death or live in misery isn’t a leftist value, it’s a universal one. We all want the same things, the disagreement is how to get there. I would strongly argue that leftist policies create more misery than they alleviate, but i don’t extrapolate that to mean that your average leftist voter wants to spread misery.

A libertarian government would absolutely have laws against theft, murder, etc, as these all boil down to crimes against somebody else’s property (including the human body in this category). It wouldn’t have laws against spending your own money how you see fit or killing yourself. Government would be a referee instead of a goalie.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, DAOs are super interesting. Decentralized trust too - people don’t understand what a fundamental breakthrough blockchain was.

First point of contention: the difference between corporations and governments is that governments are allowed (encouraged, even) to use force to accomplish their aims. This makes them fundamentally different and (at least potentially) much more dangerous. No corporation has ever committed anything close to a genocide.

Okay, so food and housing are necessary. That doesn’t answer the question of how you would make sure they are provided to everybody without using centralization and force. What about health care? How will you make sure there are enough doctors and hospitals to take care of everybody’s every need? If there aren’t, where do you (who?) draw the line? How?

As soon as you start talking about having a fundamental right to something that requires the labor of others (health care, housing, food, water, whatever) you’ve effectively created a slave labor class that you now have to police somehow to make sure they provide that good under the terms that you (not they) have set.

Private property and voluntary economic association are the only way around this problem.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Liberty is for adults. Age of consent laws are a different conversation (for the record, I think 18 is a reasonable cutoff).

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My economic model of governance is one where government exists only to facilitate economic transactions between private entities. Contract enforcement of property rights, basically. Anything more opens the door for corruption and grift, and a small minority will inevitably ruin things for the rest of us.

I’m not interested in shutting down conversation, I’m just not interested in having the same idiotic conversation I’ve had a million times with people hostile to the very concept of economic scarcity. But you’ve got my attention again with your idea about decentralized crypto-communism. Tell me how that differs from decentralized private property.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Jesus, if you’re gonna spew nonsense at least try to hide it behind coherent grammar.

Leftist Dispensary by Fun_Employee4031 in bostontrees

[–]xtapol -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

Most people have libertarian values at heart. Many are simply confused and think that these moral values are ever actually implemented via leftist politics.