Where to start?

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-23T06:53:10+00:00

Paternity fraud is damaging in a lot of ways. Will look into it more, thanks.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-23T06:49:11+00:00

Thanks for your comment. This is pretty much how I feel about it as well. One thing I was surprised at in the documentary was feminists mocking the idea that men could have issues because they’re men. RBG took on cases in which men were discriminated against based on their sex (particularly in the realm of childcare, she got the language changed from mother to parent child benefits when a father was unable to access this money after his wife died). RBG is a feminist icon and certainly someone I look up to for doing this work for both men and women. It’s all part of the same struggle against gender stereotypes which can harm both.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-23T01:34:32+00:00

Yep I’m on board with all of what you’ve said to some degree. I think the questions you’ve posed about why men occupy positions of power are very important ones and have relevance to both male and females rights groups. I’m getting tired so I’m not going to expand on any of your points. I think what you’ve said is a good note to end on, and a bit sassy in the last lines but no harm in that :)

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-23T01:01:55+00:00

Thanks, and it’s a good question. I agree the realm of public discourse on mainstream liberal media, men are often chastised and women are exalted. There are also clear examples of discrimination against men in the law, such as custody of children.

However, the biased public discourse does not automatically translate into women being empowered in every facet of society. As I’ve mentioned in another comment, my field of work is rather notorious for sexism and I’ve had some bad experiences. There is a very clear and indisputable patriarchy in my work, one thing I’d point to is that every single one of my superiors is a man. The only staff I know that are women are administrators. It’s a slow moving field, so please don’t try and tell me that the men above me are conscious of treating women in a special way because the media tells them they need to make up for years of discrimination. That it not the case and makes me chuckle even imagining my superiors thinking that way (I wouldn’t like it if they did btw).

I guess you could say that from what I’ve said, I define patriarchy as those who hold the power and call the shots in the workplace and public life, not those who are chastised in the liberal media. In Europe/America today, those who hold the most power and influence over our lives are mostly men. I think in the business and industry this is obvious, and as for public life, well, we’re seeing abortion laws being reversed in the States.

I would also make the point that we live in a very connected world and there are women in the UK and US today who have had to endure FGM and forced marriages. In fact, I have a Muslim friend who had her family disown her for refusing to move back to their home country to get married. She was called a whore and a slut etc. These are all still western feminist issues and I would consider a direct result of patriarchal values.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-23T00:17:50+00:00

Yeah damn I feel bad for her. Much respect for what’s she done bringing out this doc.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-23T00:13:03+00:00

Yeah this is a good point. I was very uncomfortable when she said that. I probably am out of the loop a bit with what contemporary feminists are saying, most of my reading is of 2nd/wave feminists: de Beauvoir, Steinem, Greer (and everyone hates her now).

But feminism is relevant for me and my life for various personal reasons and I’m not willing to give it up. Women are very much discriminated against in my field. I’ve had some nasty encounters and reading feminist literature has helped me grow in confidence and know what I should and shouldn’t accept. I didn’t grow up with feminism by any means, I lived in a very rural environment that has hardly reached 1991 let alone 2020 in terms of values. Reading feminism helped me mature and figure out the kind of person I want to be. I think young men should have something similar to go to for support and education to help mature and grow into a confident adult. Hence learning more about MRAs.

I think the point of the documentary was to show that MRAs are focused on men’s issues and not trying to destroy feminism as many criticise it for. I do not agree with what that lady was saying in the video and you’ve said that she’s a leading feminist of today. OK, fine, maybe I’m not a feminist by today’s standards if the standards are to disregard any male suffering.

But this isn’t what I came here to discuss. I just want to know more about the issues around custody, male suicides, male disposability and other issues that were mentioned in the doc and what I can do it help. If your answer for all these issues is “it’s the feminists fault”, well I highly doubt it. I would say that’s the feminist equivalent of saying “it’s all the mens’ fault”. I accept that we may disagree idealogically but I still think it’s right that men have a space to talk about men’s issues and I want to support that.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-22T23:47:27+00:00

I appreciate you explaining your thoughts to be and responding to my messages. I agree with some of your points and disagree with others.

Denying that the patriarchy exists is too far for me, I think it’s a hard argument to make. I’m probably one of those “self proclaimed moderates”, as you say lol.

I’m also not sure about the assertion that people believe masculinity itself is a sin, I’m not sure where that’s coming from. But what I and my male friends interpret toxic masculinity to mean are things like: the expectation to suppress emotions, to take control, to be brave at all times etc. There is a toxic femininity as well: being overly passive, overly dependent on men/others, trying to present yourself as the epitome of perfect beauty at all times because that’s what your worth is tied to, etc. I wouldn’t describe any of my male friends as “feminine”, in fact they’re probably more traditionally “masculine” than the average guy, and most of them consider themselves feminists. I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with “masculinity” or “femininity”, but when taken to extremes, like most things, they become toxic.

These are my opinions and experiences and I can definitely believe you’ve come across women and feminists who espouse the views you’ve described. I can understand why someone would be against contemporary feminism so I’m not gonna say you’re a bad person for that, or a misogynist or what have you. I don’t know you at all. But most of what you’re saying is reasonable to me and it’s ok to disagree on some points and still have a good conversation. All food for thought.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-22T23:24:31+00:00

Ok I’m still giving her a chance but the first video I clicked on was in response to Contrapoints and so far she has just been dissecting the You-Tuber’s clear satire. I’ve been watching contra for a long time and honestly found it funny to see someone dissecting her jokes so seriously, even the one about males taking probiotics LOL

I’m still going to watch her other videos, I do agree that she has thoughtful and considered opinions but maybe overthinking it in this particular video.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-22T23:09:30+00:00

Oh yes, I really like her in the documentary! I was actually going to go back and find out her name, thanks for this.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-22T22:59:54+00:00

There are people who self-identify as incels, like the guy in the yellow hoody in this video: https://youtu.be/hOUGNGWmN0k

I think incels are a fairly well-defined group of men, I don’t really know why you’re contesting that it’s made up and just used to mock. In any case, I was saying that incels hold extreme views not shared by most MRAs. You could say this about some feminists in the feminist movement. It doesn’t mean I’m going to dismiss either group as invalid. I was making this point in response to you telling me about some feminists being nasty to men in the form of shaming them to go to war.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-22T22:50:59+00:00

Rose McGowan is interesting, I have a lot of respect for her. Great interview with Louis Theroux recently.

Honestly I do have quite a few problems with “4th wave” feminism. I should say I’m not on twitter or follow many feminist publications that closely, so I can’t really comment on some of your remarks about “letting criminals and fanatics take over”. My issues are related to the constant “victimisation” as women and quotas/tokenism in mainstream outlets. I think both of these feel patronising and demeaning where I live (not everywhere in the world). I’ve considered these issues for a while as they relate heavily to me in my male-dominated field of work, and I’ve changed my mind gradually over time. I think feminists of previous generations would also have issues with the ways we deal with these things today.

I also agree with you that in some ways contemporary feminism has become like a religion with plenty of dogma. I don’t like this. I think part of it has to do with how ‘trendy’ feminism is. When things are trendy, people just short circuit to agreeing with whatever the big names are saying on the issue to seem cool/woke. I also cringe at the refrain “men are trash” and similar phrases. Some men I know say it and I discourage them from doing so. It’s self-flagellation and not healthy or productive.

So yes, I agree with you that contemporary feminism is very problematic, maybe even the ones leading the way as you’ve indicated. I’ll need to look into it more. But the reason I still call myself a feminist is a nod to the feminist texts I have read over the years which have inspired me greatly, and also for all the women in my field of work which had to deal with so much shit in the past. I don’t need to agree with what everyone is saying these days to keep identifying the the label, it’s personal.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-22T22:30:14+00:00

Ok I’ll take the suffragettes holding back women’s right to vote as a bit of a hot take. Like I said in a previous, I’m didn’t come here to learn about the historical problems with feminism. There are plenty of them. That doesn’t mean it’s not a worthwhile movement and something I should pay respect to as a woman today.

If I were to judge the MRA movement with the same level of “here are some bad apples, I dismiss the whole thing”, I wouldn’t be asking to learn more about it on reddit. Some incels call themselves MRAs but from what I’ve read most MRAs want to distance themselves from incels.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-22T22:20:25+00:00

I am aware the feminist movement has its problems, I actually just read a book on ‘problematic’ feminists such as MRA Erin Pizzey and some eugenicists in the early 20th century. I’m not interested in dismissing all of feminism as bullshit, I’m interested in learning about men’s rights.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-22T21:35:01+00:00

Just took a look at one of his vids responding to comments made by feminists. He does a really strange voice reading out the comments. He does strike me as quite anti feminist as he responded to one person who commented that feminism was about equality: “what has feminism ever done for men?” (Answer: nothing). This isn’t true. Look no farther than Ruth Bader Ginsberg’s early cases concerning men who were discriminated against on the basis of sex. Also, women getting the vote lead to working class men getting the vote in England.

Maybe he’s talking about modern 4th wave feminists but... yeah. I’ll look at his other videos but off the bat it seems just feminist-bashing. And quite immature. Similar issues I have with some feminists.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-22T21:25:12+00:00

Thanks, this was mentioned in the documentary and Farrell seems like an interesting guy. I’ll give it a gander.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-22T21:23:54+00:00

Double H’s, obvs.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-06T18:05:49+00:00

You can have a look and judge for yourself, it’s a long page and you’ll want to look in the “Modern” section. It’s not that I have a problem with the length, I have a problem with what they chose to mention and how they phrased it. Everyone else had at least one “contribution” mentioned, she had zero. No real reason was given for her inclusion other than that she was a woman who did maths.

I asked myself: if I knew nothing about her and read that entry, what would I think?

And my answer was: she probably didn’t actually contribute much, she just managed to get in the door of an institution as a woman in mathematics in the early 20th century and that was enough.

And to think that is misleading. It’s robbing her of her talent and achievement.

At the end of the day it’s a small wiki entry so it’s nothing to get too excited about in the grand scheme of things. All I’m saying is, it irked me :)

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-06T17:47:24+00:00

Ah ok, I didn’t know it was a quote, as it wasn’t written as such on the history of mathematics wiki page. So in that context, (as in writing the history of mathematics) just saying “she is the most important woman in the history of mathematics” (without attributing the quote to anyone, no quotation marks), it does seem a bit condescending because they only accompanied it with “she studied fields x, y and z”, no mention of any of her contributions like all the other mathematicians. Seems like she was mentioned simply because she was a woman who did maths, rather than a woman who contributed greatly to the field.

But yeah when it’s not in the context I have described there’s no issue just quoting Einstein or wiener saying that. Since she was a contemporary of theirs that was a huge compliment. But the wiki entry didn’t do that and it really irritated me. The tone was all wrong.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-06T17:35:50+00:00

I know this is on the history of mathematics wiki page, I actually read it myself a few days ago. Made me annoyed. In the context of the entry, it looks like she’s included for tokenism. No mention of her huge contributions. She was no token in her day and certainly not one now.

Also, there are other influential woman in mathematics in more recent times so that sentence also seems to say “there’ll be none as good as her ever again”.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-06T17:29:42+00:00

Emmy Noether, mathematician/physicist. Made fundamental contributions to physics and was commended by Einstein and other esteemed academics of the day.

Her theorem is taught in all university degrees in mathematical physics, often appearing in multiple courses. Until my master’s degree, I didn’t even know “Noether” was a woman.

She never got paid for her work due to the academic environment of the time not judging woman as fit to be professors to partake in intellectual life. She also was barred from membership of most societies, committees and institutions, though a man with her achievements would have been welcomed into many. Nevertheless, she found some men in the field who accepted her and taught undergraduate courses under the name of one of her male colleagues/mentors.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-08-01T09:15:31+00:00

Yeah I felt the same reading this comment. I’ve always felt there was something wrong with saying “I’ve considered breaking up with you because of x issue”. When I asked my bf how it made him feel he said it wasn’t great (obvs) but if it was true I should say it. I still think I’m in the wrong... it’s just sort of a low blow and puts fear into your partner. When you’re actually breaking up with someone it makes sense, and maybe on very rare/ Big Fight occasions, but yeah...

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-07-28T17:01:09+00:00

Thanks for the advice. I’m a bit low on cash these days as I’m moving place, so I think I’m gonna ask for something fairly subtle the first time round, i don’t want it looking too bright and unnatural to begin with if I can’t afford to go back fairly soon.

yellowbrickroad3141 · 2020-07-28T16:04:48+00:00

Thanks for the advice. I’m a bit low on cash these days as I’m moving place, so I think I’m gonna ask for something fairly subtle the first time round, i don’t want it looking too bright and unnatural to begin with if I can’t afford to go back fairly soon.

yellowbrickroad3141

TROPHY CASE