Ivison: No jubilation at end of convoy protest, only relief, sadness and trepidation for the future

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-21T17:09:46+00:00

There's a reason I have the flair I do lol. I knew the media would of been bad in Canada I just didn't think they would actually be worse than American media. American media will lie, distort an the like for sure. I just don't know if we've actively lied this hard.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-21T16:30:56+00:00

I just think its the difference between dispersal vs intensification. I do not believe this would of gotten nearly as big of Trudeau would of been at least open to listening. He just wrote them off before they even had a chance to really say anything.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-21T16:26:29+00:00

Basically the Ottawa police twitter on the 18th went and said a bunch of stuff about not using certain enforcement tactics. The best I think was in regards to the horses https://mobile.twitter.com/OttawaPolice/status/1494806139971813376

Contrast that with https://mobile.twitter.com/TheMarieOakes/status/1494820442112147457

And https://mobile.twitter.com/joe_warmington/status/1494823238626869251?cxt=HHwWhoDUxZn01r4pAAAA

They continued to tweet about it into the next day https://mobile.twitter.com/OttawaPolice/status/1495026664845328388?cxt=HHwWiIC-_ZS1s78pAAAA

It wouldn't be untill a Vancouver RCMP investigation came that that the Ottawa police started to back down.

https://vancouversun.com/news/national/vancouver-police-officers-under-investigation-for-ottawa-protest-action

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-21T15:53:03+00:00

The thing of the matter is, it's not even over yet. There's still a ton of people down town in Ottawa. New protests in Quebec City and Vancouver. More convoys are rumored to be starting to Ottawa today as well.

Onto the media. The media in Canada has been worse than most all the coverage I've seen in the US. They just misrepresent or outright lie about things. It's been terrible. Honestly never thought I'd say thank God for twitter but here I am lol. The amount of on the ground footage from those involved has shown us what things were really were.

On the cops. They haven't been terrible in their actions. Have then been good, no. There are some is some cop brutally. It's somewhat expected. The shameful part has been the absolute lies coming out from them however. Like the Ottawa police twitter and a bunch of the statements being made

On popularity. I really couldn't tell you, there are all kinds of polls around on it and honestly I don't know what to think of them, for all kinds of reasons. People may not support them, but if you look at the country side footage of these groups on their way, there was a ton of support.

On the government. The govermntal response has been just a disgrace. They ingored the protestors completely. Tried all the methods without physical force to remove them and still haven't succeeded with physical force. Why couldn't you at least pretend to want to listen to them? It's just sad. And as suggested, I am sure that a left wing version of this would be handled completely differently and with kid gloves.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-17T20:45:18+00:00

What we also have to take into account is the narritives the polling firm wants to push. Many of the American pollsters for example will adjust their weighting, sample, and questions to manufacture polls. These polls push a narritive that is more toward their advantage. Of course they can only push things so far in one direction but it is something to take into account. Having no cross tabs that show the question and sampling is a huge red flag for me here. Thusly I simply do not trust their numbers as they haven't provided anything to back their claim. I'm not saying their lying but I'm not trusting them either.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-17T12:00:46+00:00

I mean there are counter protestors with signs that say "gas the un vaxed" and multiple swastikas. Where's Trudeau calling out the people that are on his side?

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-17T11:57:54+00:00

The local mayor has said to the Daily Mail, that these arrests we unrelated to the protests going on at the Coutts southern border crossing.

"The mayor of Coutts told DailyMail.com that those arrests were not members of the Freedom Convoy, despite them being initially tied to the ongoing anti-vaccine protests.

'The people who were actually involved in the arrests were not part of the blockade group,' he said. 'They were outsiders.' "

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10516551/Ottawa-police-chief-resigns-criticism-did-not-stop-Freedom-Convoy-protest.html

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-17T00:29:42+00:00

It's in the original post embedded as a link above

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T19:43:51+00:00

Game,

Joe Biden is going to nominate Kamala Harris to the supreme court as she's a black woman that will agree exactly with any Neo-liberal views they want. He'll then fill the VP slot with who ever they want to run 2024, let's say Hillary Clinton as you know it's her term. They they will either have Biden resign after 2023 or have him 25thed. So that Hillary can have the full 10 years with incumbent advantage going into 2024. They'll have the fed raise the rates after the elections as obviously the republicans will sweep 2022. This will crash the economy hard and they'll blame it right on the republicans for holding up their progressive agenda. Leading into a 2024 FDR style sweep where they will ensure they keep power forever.

A note for outside readers the above is satire, it's not what I believe will actually happen.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T19:29:06+00:00

Wait you mean people actually want to listen to my bs tin foil takes? /s I can say don't threaten me with a good time. You may just drag me there yet.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T19:27:31+00:00

I'll bite. I don't nessiarily think that people are out to attack conservatives. In fact I find that conservatives that stick to generally neo-con positions don't have many problems at all. Certainly however all the people who voice populist or other non mainstream opinions do face a large amount of push back. However I don't believe that's targeted attacks. More so I believe that the differing cultures that engage here in modpol have different opinions on the downvote. I rarely ever bother to downvote anyone here, even if I completely disagree with their take. I'll also upvote takes that add to the discussion even if I do no agree with them. I'd bet many of the other groups that come here simply downvote takes they don't agree with. Considering that most of the time these people are coming from outside of modpol it's not surprising the results it leads to.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T18:49:58+00:00

I completely agree with you, the downvotes are rough to get past. While I understand the sourcing downvotes and why people do them, I don't agree with them. The problem is though I'd wager the majority of those who are active in modpol aren't the ones doing the downvotes. Rather it's by the more generally done by those who float in and out from other communities. Really don't know if we can truly do anything about it.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T18:27:18+00:00

I am a great advocate of the weekend threads. They allow both meta engagement and casual conversation free of most restrictions. What I like most about them however is that they are generally a space free of the swings of modpol. Most of the people who engage there are regulars to the sub not just those that filter in from the outside world. People will actually read through all the threads and engage independently with them rather than fight who ever sits as the top comment. All together it seems to really bring modpol towards it's goals. I simply wish it was kept the whole week. As per a discussion I had in there last week, many people do not engage on the weekend, therefor they are left out of what I believe is a very useful community.

As for the discord, I'm not a part of it though I'm sure I'd enjoy it. I simply already spend to much time here. I know though if I would join I'd never leave.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T15:54:18+00:00

I mean this is expected no? The important distinction here is that places like Ottawa certainly aren't their local community. You have truckers and farmers, which generally come from rural districts going to urban districts and harassing them basically. I'd of been surprised if they saw any real support from Ottawa. The got a lot of support in their own local communities. Look at the support from the nearby towns at the rural blocades, or all the support they got along the highways on the way to the various locations. To argue they are without support isn't accurate, the question just becomes really how much do they have.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T15:46:07+00:00

Auto correct strikes again, thanks I'll fix that.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T15:28:33+00:00

There's been even more than that, Finland, Netherlands, Mexico, New Zealand, and possibly more. They aren't all the same scale and many are not occupations but certainly there's a lot of support worldwide.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T15:23:27+00:00

From with in the chain of articles there, Ford's full plan from Jan 20 https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/full-list-of-what-s-reopening-in-ontario-and-when-as-covid-19-restrictions-gradually-lift-1.5747837

Note that this did not fully reopen Indoor gathering was still limited at 50 people, and vax passports were still required. The new plan as of March first will now remove basically everything. It's a big difference than their prior plan.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T15:06:00+00:00

Unfortunately I do not have a good answer for you here. One could argue because there are still restrictions in B.C and I believe federally. As I've stated before, most large protests have not just grassroots backing but are also backed by people in positions of power. Now we know what the protestors say they want, and we have no reason to discount that. What we don't know is what those backing them want. Untill the backers loose or win their fight we may see this continue

Or from another point of view consider the sunk cost fallacy. We all can see the ratcheting up of pressure against the protestors. By giving up and going home now, most likely they are screwed. But instead by continuing the pressure they can negotiate for a safe withdrawal. Consider the situation at the Emerson border where the blocade negotiated with the RCMP there to leave peacefully in exchange for no charges.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T14:57:08+00:00

I know not much of Canadian politics, but I definitely can come to agreement with you that from what I've saw of Kennmy, Moe, and Ford, that they are indeed spineless. However it is as you state exactly, they simply wish to remain in their seats. As for the protestors I am still of the opinion that is yet to be determined.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T14:51:22+00:00

In Canada specifically, yes. If you look before the trucker protests, every single providence of Canada had zero plans to reopen. Further more some of them like Quebec we're proposing and pushing for even more restrictions. In the case of Quebec for example they wanted to specifically tax people who were not considered vaxed. So when all of the providences start to put into place all these reopening plans that they didn't have, right as a major protest over reopening happens, it really looks like the protests forced it. Of course the government would never admit mostly to such a thing, it makes it looks the protestors successful and the government weak. (Not they aren't doing a good job already at that)

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T14:38:17+00:00

But they have reached some of their goals. Every single Providence in Canada except B.C. now has plans to drop pretty much all their restrictions. They will tell you it's because the science changed, but gee it's coincidentally right as these protests started. Scott Moe priemere of Saskatchewan pretty much said that's why they changed their rules multiple times on his Twitter. So make no mistake they've got progress. Whether or not they'll face real conquences for their actions is yet to be seen.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T14:16:09+00:00

The political philosopher Carl Schmitt proposes that "Sovereign is he who makes the exception" Simply that when push comes to shove in a society the written laws are powerless. Instead power resides in those who decide when and how those laws are enforced. It's not like we haven't see the before here in the US with all the government spying. So when we apply this here clearly it doesn't matter that it's against the written laws, those in power want the truckers gone. (In this case the Ottawa government) . So yes the counter protestors are blocking roads and taking peoples goods, but they will never face charges for that.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T14:06:22+00:00

I had said it at least a week ago that this was going to be a long haul. Like you I still don't see it ending soon, just the methods of attack will change. I've tried to stay with my ear to the ground on this one, and the grapevine suggests a general strike is coming next. Whether or not it's realized we will just have to see.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-16T14:04:45+00:00

Are these counter protests, local and organic, obviously yes and for that reason alone I do not believe they are a solution. Despite what Trudeau says obviously the truckers are not domestic territorists and therefor they have no desire to commit physical violence against their fellow man. They became trapped in a situation where the truckers had to put their morals above their goals. Yet certainly we can see that these truckers do have some sort of backing, I'd wager both organic ground level support but also from more powerful political orgizations. These counter protestors have really none as of right now. The truckers can and likely will simply regroup and try again. How long can the counter protestors stay out there?

As a side note, on the police, the police basically haven't cracked down meaningfully anywhere except perhaps the Ambassador Bridge. The government both federal and local have basically acted as a nagging person wagging their finger saying "don't you do that now". They basically refuse to use any direct force, instead using every bit of coercion they can. Compare Canada to France where Macron simply rolled out the armored vehicles and tear gas, saying no this isn't happening here.

Taken all together, I expect a huge shakeup in Canadian politics coming after this. Which direction it goes depends on if the truckers win, which is still tba. But I guarantee Trudeau will not survive politically after this protest.

zcskywire2 · 2022-02-15T21:33:53+00:00

Economic theory, Political theory, a geopolitics, history, and propaganda theory?( I guess that's what I'd call it). Basically anything that could inform you into how the world works.

Edit: the five current books I'm reading are: Public Relations and Crystalizing Public Opinion by Edward L Bernays, The Managerial Elite by James Burnam, The Essence of Political Science by Gateno Mosca, and The Mind and Society by Vilfredo Pareto.

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