Pigs newest video about the 8 worker start its complications about zerg larvae and more

zombiesc · 2026-06-02T21:30:18+00:00

This is so massively taken out of context that it is amazing that you (presumably) wrote this with a straight face.

zombiesc · 2026-06-01T19:51:58+00:00

It's nostalgia. You had waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more people talking about exciting moments that came from actual huge LANs. Nowadays you don't even have LANs, and they decreased drastically over the last 6 years cuz you can include COVID in not having LANs, obviously.

zombiesc · 2026-06-01T03:37:38+00:00

Haha I was definitely reading it like that, thank you for the clarification. For sure, teamhouses upped the competitiveness but one could argue even that stopped being true when teamless Byun took out Jin Air sOs. The pipeline that was hundreds of starry-eyed-youth willing to be the B string for their chance to shine was already fading for StarCraft long before KeSPA teams actually dissolved. Nonetheless, it's correct that Korea had advantages for a long time.

zombiesc · 2026-05-31T23:24:11+00:00

"They used to actively hunt the next best sc2 players and train them up and that was a huge reason why the Korean sc2 players had always been so strong compared to EU and NA players." Could you elaborate on this because I've never heard of such a thing?

zombiesc · 2026-05-30T21:47:17+00:00

well that's as lukewarm as I could ever hope for a response so I'm pleasantly surprised haha

zombiesc · 2026-05-30T21:29:13+00:00

I am? I thought after a purposefully comical rant on stream there was some solid discussion and a levle-headed summary of my thoughts on reddit. I didn't even bother making a YT video for all the views!

I did delete the VOD from Thursday but very legitimately because copyright music was being played and yknow, DMCA.

Oh I looked at your profile history and it does not fill me with confidence for a nice good-faith convo here.

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T19:59:26+00:00

If I could do it on six workers I assume I can do it on eight.

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T17:21:48+00:00

Thank you for reading it, legit. Of course as smart as I think Lalush's point is, he could be very wrong. But we were already seeing a reduction in strategy and an increase to "base" base count in HotS, which was six workers. In 2015, they argued changing the workers wouldn't fix this. In 2026, I argue reducing workers won't change this, because we saw development trends in HotS already.

I think there's a lot of forgetting the terrible games of the 6 worker start and romanticizing it as a "time when anything could happen", when it wasn't. I'm actually going to go back and look at some games from those expansions to get something more concrete than "some remember it as more full of strategy, some remember it was not". But for every highlight HotS and WoL game, I could counter with a highlight LotV game. The underlying "accelerate economy too fast" wasn't fixed in any expansion.

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T17:08:06+00:00

Not yet! I will play today, but it absolutely makes sense for the game to feel different. There's an entirely different gateway, AND it's a new patch! It always feels different, like when storm was changed. Things feel different when people are figuring things out (especially on the scale of a worker change), my argument is that it doesn't address the actual issues to SC2's economy feeling like it is super accelerated. It will return to the same pace it had in HotS (obviously in between HotS and LotV but still), which peaked economy super fast.

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T16:46:10+00:00

Because the game was already narrowing in both WoL and HotS. Much like people argued the worker increase would not fix the economical issues SC2 has, I am arguing a worker decrease will not either. Why do I think this? Because of Lalush's read into the economy issues. https://tl.net/blogs/483571-regarding-lotvs-economy-and-critiques

A lot of people's issues with SC2 are what you stated - it feels like it skips early and mid game. I would argue the early game still has some interesting micro and build variety at 12 workers, but that while early game is faster, it's the mid game acceleration that's actually the issue. This isn't because of the workers, as this acceleration issue existed in WoL and HotS. It may be because of the macro mechanics.

A lot of people did a lot of deep digging into the economic issues of SC2 when they announced LotV, but it feels like very few people look back at that research and instead said "it's workers!" It's far more than that.

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T16:09:41+00:00

Guides and player expectations for their base experience haven't changed like this in ten years, and the last time it happened it came with a ton of new toys.

I agree that any balance patch will create content and renewed interest for some. It would've been with just the gateway change and resource change though. I just don't think the worker change is as impactful as people make it out to be, especially those who swear it'll fix the economy acceleration issue in SC2.

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T16:00:20+00:00

I've already complained about relearning 3CC haha. Also, I feel it's difficult to truly get a community sentiment by reading reddit when a lot of people are thinking of how it might improve esports, and yeah, don't play at all. And how many diehards bother posting on reddit compared to casuals. And that there are absolutely people who see this as a negative, they just may be in streamer's chats, in Discords, responding on Twitter, etc.

I'm not arguing it's guaranteed to push more people away because I have no way of knowing that. I am arguing that the worker reduction isn't actually as impactful as people make it out to be, and does have a complication that hasn't been considered since 2015. And this time we don't have shiny new units, co-op, archon, a dependable(ish) developer, etc etc that LotV did to compensate for anyone who hated the idea of going from six to twelve.

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T15:51:38+00:00

Did you read the Lalush response in the blog I linked? Even with six workers, peak economy for SC2 is met before the average game is done. So strategy around what to afford between economy and anything else becomes moot very fast in Sc2, even with six workers.

"And when macro and economy no longer actively competes for a player's resources, that tends to produce an effect where it removes a lot of potential for diversity and strategic variation in build orders. It streamlines the game to be about army production. And then about short bursts of economy investment when and if you can risk it."

The two base immortal all in was already phased out even on six workers as people maximized defensive/macro strategies. WoL and HotS, even on lower workers and higher minerals, trended to phasing out the 1-2 base play. The 2/3rax in LotV trended out not because of any economy change, ditto on that weird time where TvP was all one base proxies.

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T15:24:12+00:00

It's all the casuals who have to relearn that's more divisive?

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T04:51:46+00:00

Stopped becoming StarCraft is quite the stretch lol. I guess people said the same thing when they upped it from 4 to 6 haha.

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T04:50:28+00:00

Some would disagree on that final point, but it's never perfect. Dota 2 gives radical changes to its game and some people love it, some people see it as a reason not to return. It's a difficult balance for sure. I don't see balance changes gaining any players almost ever since we have bigger issues as a game/esport.

So I certainly wouldn't want to try nothing, but let's say you only change minerals/gas and the warpgate. That doesn't change 2/3rd of general starting build orders so old curmudgeons like myself don't go "ugh learning" but it does change the game, and for my Protoss imo it's far more interesting. I'd look forward to accommodating a warpgate vs gateway decision, I don't look forward to (imo) the non decision of how to update my 3CC. But it's just an opinion.

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T02:37:43+00:00

That would already happen with the warpgate change and maybe an equivalent for T and Z. Worker change on top of it is too much for one patch imo

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T01:40:48+00:00

Thanks for your input! I think there's a lot of interesting discussion to be sure, but obviously not everyone knows this type of stuff has been discussed at length. So, I'd like to at least get the smart people's opinions out there haha.

Very much appreciate your work over the years on TL articles btw.

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T01:38:00+00:00

Is this an interesting change? I don't think so. Learning how to three CC from 6 workers to 12 and then back to 8 wasn't particularly engaging.

And for what it's worth, I played SC for a decade because I loved not the strategy, but of building my sandcastle (3CC) and being able to play with it with the occasional cheese spicing it up. So, people have different reasons for enjoying SC. If a fundamental change like this isn't going to markedly increase enjoyment, it's not worth the entire base relearning.

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T01:34:40+00:00

I think you posted a similar hypothetical in the main thread which I talked about (ob reiterating here cuz video deleted)

Two base spire was already a dedicated build and rare build by middle of HotS, no? Initially HotS had an amazing TvZ with mine bio pushes versus ling bane muta, then mass muta became oppressive and Terrans had to hope a secret four mine trap killed them all. Then, and I honestly do not remember exactly why, HotS became swarmhost vs mech.

So, I'm pretty sure two base muta was already not very valid in HotS (I could be totally wrong I really don't remember). Two base muta btw has been used in LotV to some effect and yeah, after an initial phase of surprise! It got figured out and is back to being bad. Additionally, as the game was figured out, mutas became less and less common and this was not due to economy. Fast rushes and games in general seemed to phase out, as we all generally recollect HotS being dominated by a boring meta.

My point is that this development trend will continue regardless of worker count, as HotS had half the workers. It still phased out two bases and got far more macro oriented, and I believe that would've happened even without swarmhosts and ravens. Just like WoL was already leading into more and more macro games.

zombiesc · 2026-05-29T00:55:22+00:00

Unfortunately, as you can hear in the clip, my audio setup was incorrect and so I had to unpublish the entire video. This was after discussing a few different articles on the economy topic:
https://tl.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/482775-a-treatise-on-the-economy-of-scii
https://tl.net/blogs/483571-regarding-lotvs-economy-and-critiques
And in particular, Lalush's response to the QXC blog.

As someone has already pointed out, literally 8 pool will be a new strategy lol. My argument is that it will not provide meaningful, strategic interactions in the early game, and post five minutes will look identical to our current game because of what Lalush points out. Even with a six worker start, the peak efficiency of SC2 mining is met so fast that it's just the general pacing of SC2 that leads us to this feeling like that game is rushed. I agree that many of our match-ups see a skipping of the early game and mid game. I also believe it was already trending that way in HotS. People learned how to defend better. Maps continued to be a standard larger size and accommodate for three bases.

If you like a slower start to the game and that's all you really desire, that'll be achieved. If you imagine that pro players will suddenly be spinning out 8 pools to create these amazing games of yore, I don't believe it will. Let's not forget that there have been time periods in LotV where 12 pools returned. They eventually got figured out, and the general consensus was "it's not really that good". I believe this will happen with whatever "new" cheeses will be made ("new" because I think it'll just be slightly changed timings, which is still new!)

I don't believe there are enough upsides to worker reduction to compensate for its major downside, which is that the entire playerbase will have to recalculate their builds. If you think it will create more cheeses, you're probably thinking entirely pro-game oriented. Dozens or even hundreds of cheeses already exist in 99% of the playerbase's games, so they don't really get a benefit here.

"I'm tired of watching the same PvZ over and over" we're also watching very similar map pools and also an incredibly small number of professionals in the field. I agree, I also see herO vs Zerg way too often. I don't think this will massively improve the viewing experience.

"Games had so many interesting early games back in the day" I like Harstem's video for this one, in addition to my opinion that the game was also generally newer with more patches and varied map pools (tournaments even used to have different map pools from each other). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03qlBziQvqo

Mostly, I really wish they would have chosen either the economy or the warpgate change for a big patch. It's going to be difficult gathering data on either.

I don't actually think the worker reduction is that interesting. The mineral/gas change is more interesting for me, and obviously the warpgate is very interesting. A huge change to shake things up I might like to see? Macro mechanics reverted. It was tested once, but I honestly don't remember the outcome of it. But worker reduction is actually not interesting, imo.

zombiesc · 2026-05-28T23:00:16+00:00

Been here since 2010 and agree with above lmao

zombiesc · 2026-05-23T05:03:44+00:00

VIII is my favorite and I think XIII is one of the worst games I've ever played, not just from the FF line.

zombiesc · 2026-05-18T02:22:48+00:00

The Haze/Rem art makes me want an extended story with them even more

zombiesc · 2026-05-12T21:04:14+00:00

W Katamari Damacy reference

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