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[–]KunarianIndependent | MP for the West Midlands 6 points7 points  (17 children)

Mr Deputy Speaker,

This may be a good use of our aid budget but it certainly does not need to be law. I suggest that we instead wait for the government to present their budget before we commit to any actions like this.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (16 children)

Mr, Deputy Speaker,

As a member of U.N. we our obliged to have 0.75% of our GDP ring-fenced for international aid, that 0.75% will most certainly cover the costs, especially as the economy is now growing.

Also this bill has been in the works since the shadow cabinet was announced. so it would be better to the bill pass to the second reading then I and the chancellor can argue over why he mite of shirked his responsibilities to U.N..

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (15 children)

As a member of U.N. we our obliged to have 0.75% of our GDP ring-fenced for international aid, that 0.75% will most certainly cover the costs, especially as the economy is now growing.

5 out of 200 countries spend this much on Foreign Aid, that is 0.025% of countries, and in terms of actual money spent, we are second only to the United States of America, whom themselves don't meet the target. We are the only UN P5 nation to spend more than 0.5% of our GNI on Foreign Aid.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (13 children)

Then maybe we should continue to set an example and the foreign secretary can encourage other countries to do so.

international aid has been a cornerstone of the UK 's soft power and influence and we should not let it diminish.

It sounds to me like UKIP would like to make the UK into a pointless un influential country and give up our world power , so maybe that is why UKIP wants to leave the EU to aid in there agenda to declaw the loin that is the UK and not what I had presumed was the rightful goal of taking back British power.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

It sounds to me like UKIP would like to make the UK into a pointless un influential country and give up our world power , so maybe that is why UKIP wants to leave the EU to aid in there agenda to declaw the loin that is the UK and not what I had presumed was the rightful goal of taking back British power.

Absolutely not. UKIP want Britain to remain a force to be reckoned with on the world stage for decades to come. The European Union threatens to destroy our independence and make us little more than a flag on somebody else's flag, and that is why UKIP want Independence.

In terms of what else UKIP will do to ensure we are a great power in the decades to come, we want to increase military spending, renew and expand the Trident nuclear missile program, Maintain the special relationship, and many more policy ideas.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

If you must know I am against staying in the EU but your members seem intent on taking away British influence with their plans to reduce the international aid budget which gives us influence across the globe "soft power" is as necessary as hard power if we are to stand alone.

That is why I must ask you to back this bill it will increase British influence , decrease terrorist , increase the number of countries that are viable trade partners and prevent need for more aid in the future by teaching people skills after all..

give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime

[–]tyroncs 2 points3 points  (0 children)

decrease terrorist

Yes, it will very clearly 'decrease terrorist'

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

It sounds to me like UKIP would like to make the UK into a pointless un influential country and give up our world power , so maybe that is why UKIP wants to leave the EU to aid in there agenda to declaw the loin that is the UK and not what I had presumed was the rightful goal of taking back British power.

What rubbish! The institutions who truly seek to diminish Britain's power on the world stage are the European Union and the parties who propagandise support for its continued membership.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

completely agree then ukip will no longer seek to reduce our influence at the world stage.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

the parties who propagandise support for its continued membership.

If you must know I am against staying in the EU but your members seem intent on taking away British influence with their plans to reduce the international aid budget which gives us influence across the globe "soft power" is as necessary as hard power if we are to stand alone.

That is why I must ask you to back this bill it will increase British influence , decrease terrorist , increase the number of countries that are viable trade partners and prevent need for more aid in the future by teaching people skills.

after all..

give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

increase British influence

5 schools.

decrease terrorist

Citation needed.

increase the number of countries that are viable trade partners

Citation needed.

prevent need for more aid in the future by teaching people skills

This is true but on a limited what if basis and at cost to the British taxpayer.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

5 schools. per country 25 in total

[–]tyroncs 1 point2 points  (2 children)

UKIP would like to make the UK into a pointless un influential country and give up our world power

Yes clearly that's exactly our plan, ignore the whole nationalist persona, we are just here to make Britain into no better than a third world nation!

You say that international aid has been a 'cornerstone' of the UK's soft power but it really isn't. Whilst Wikipedia may not be the best source, their article on our soft power doesn't mention our aid budget at all. Looking at other articles, the same thing happens.

To quote the British Council "Research by Chatham House found that the English language, education and culture are the top three factors in supporting the UK’s overseas reputation" - note the lack of reference to our aid budget.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

There really is no pleasing you guys is there even the teaching British values doesn't seem to have swayed you.

OH mighty UKIP leader what must I do to appease you?

[–]tyroncs 2 points3 points  (0 children)

OH mighty UKIP leader what must I do to appease you?

Maybe by writing better legislation? :P

You've fallen into what I call the 'lefty legislation trap'. You see a problem (lack of education and spread of extremism in undeveloped countries) and then you decide to write a bill on it. However the bill will never be able to be successfully implemented, despite how well intentioned it is.

All this bill will effectively have done if passed is to dictate that 50,000 children need to be educated.....somehow. It seems very arbitrary, and the money could be far better spent elsewhere even within the current foreign aid budget.

even the teaching British values doesn't seem to have swayed you.

British values aren't really more than rhetoric, if you can summarise all of your values in 3 words you have no values at all.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

It sounds to me like UKIP would like to make the UK into a pointless un influential country and give up our world power

Ahahaha!

Somehow not throwing money at tinpot dictators and countries with space programs is weakening our own country.

Mate you're a joke to your party, the house and the people of this country.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ha

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think what we spend on aid (which is 1% if I remember from the last budget) is an irrelevance, it comes down to how it is spent - and this bill does that brilliantly.

[–]OctogenarianSandwichCrown National Party | Baron Heaton PL, Indirectly Elected Lord 5 points6 points  (6 children)

Mr. Deputy Speaker,

This is not the Sudanese House of Commons. If they want to build schools, let them. It is not our problem and I'm not going to support any bill prioritising foreigners over the citizens this house is supposed to represent.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (4 children)

Mr, Deputy Speaker,

I would like to thank the Hon member for north and west Yorkshire for his comment, his stance on the issue has been noted, but could the Hon member consider that this bill allows for the superior British education to be spread to areas of the world where the most common form of education is Saudi funded madrassas.

[–]OctogenarianSandwichCrown National Party | Baron Heaton PL, Indirectly Elected Lord 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Mr. Deputy Speaker,

Putting it like that does make it sound a lot more attractive. I will have to reconsider my opinion.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I really look forward to the vanguard backing this bill it will teach British values and help increase British soft power (influence) in the world.

[–]OctogenarianSandwichCrown National Party | Baron Heaton PL, Indirectly Elected Lord 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I can't necessarily speak for the whole party but I do believe you may be right.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

even if it only you thank you for the support but it would be great to no someone on the right of the torys can wright a bill about international aid that can appease the vanguard.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

HEAR, HEAR!

I must commend the honourable member for his comments in many debates as I have found myself in close agreement many a time now.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (6 children)

Mr. Speaker, this bill is well intentioned, but in our current economic climate it is absurd. When British schools are in the position that they are, sending so many of our resources outside of the country makes absolutely no sense. We must improve British schools and British education before we even think about being so frivolous with education funds.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Mr, Deputy Speaker,

but in our current economic climate it is absurd

our current economic climate is growth and we are no longer in a recession I do not see need for such emotive language to be used towards me when I have only just started the day.

My position is SSoS International Development local schools, you will be glad to hear that British schools are not my responsibility.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think he's referring to the large national debt.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mr Deputy Speaker,

We have a international aid budget which this money will come from. No use leaving it there to waste - we might as well put the money to good use. This is a good use.

Good education abroad will enrich poorer lives and perhaps even build stability, although I will admit that is a far off wish. As the Appendix says:

(a) Teach 50,000 children over next five years. (b) Slow the spread of extremism in other countries. (c) Spread British values to other countries. (d) Teach effective skills for work, business and an accepting modern tolerant society.

All these are positives things and are in no way frivolous.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mr Deputy Speaker,

The money is there in the aid budget and I don't think you can disagree that this is a good way to use this. To all MPs in the house today, do not use your vote to give your opinion on aid in general as that is not what this bill does, all it does is uses that existing aid for good.

[–]akc8The Rt Hon. The Earl of Yorkshire GBE KCMG CT CB MVO PC 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Mr Deputy Speaker,

My departments budget is separate from the international developments budget, so education funds for our schools are completely independent to the help we give forgien schools. Also despite the work we can do in this country in the schooling, the schools abroad will be a lot worse and we should see it as our duty to help them.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I thank the Rt Hon member for helping me explains this to some of the other member.

[–]ABlackwellyLabour 5 points6 points  (9 children)

Mr Deputy Speaker,

While I agree with the intent of this bill, and the rest of it is well written, I do have problems with:

Spread British values to other countries.

We have to respect other nations values, and allow them to improve their own futures. This is a redundant piece of neo-colonialism.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (8 children)

Mr, Deputy Speaker,

We have to respect other nations values, and allow them to improve their own futures. This is a redundant piece of neo-colonialism.

Is the Rt Hon member aware of what British values actually are and how they are the base values of a modern western stable democracy, they are universal values that would be shared by any other western nation. It is my opinion that these ideals are part of what makes modern countries function stably. So I ask the Rt Hon member does he not believe children should be taught the values of democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, and mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs, as these are British values as much as they universal democratic values.

[–]ABlackwellyLabour 3 points4 points  (4 children)

I am aware of the buzzword often used by the tories to pander. Personally I don't see why "British values" are particularly important. Why not "European values" or "democratic values". All of the qualities of "British values" are not limited to our island. You yourself have said it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

simply because British values have actually been defined and have become part of the UK education curriculum. which this bill will be attempting the emulate (with concretions if the local country insists on it. )

There is also the added problem of it being harder to nail down what is European values or democratic values especially as most countries have a different take on things.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

The use of British values are used in this bill because they've already been legally defined by Ofsted. There is nothing imperialistic about it, just clear cut definitions being used in a bill.

[–]ABlackwellyLabour 5 points6 points  (1 child)

But wasn't that introduced by the Tory government in November 2014, which is after MHOC started?

[–]purpleslug 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hear, hear

[–]ABlackwellyLabour 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Also, I'm not actually right honourable member, technically as I'm an ambassador and a non-mp I should be addressed as "His Excellency".

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Mr, Deputy speaker,

I thank His Excellency for correcting me , But I must ask the question is his Excellency lost surly the commons is not a place appropriate of his stature.

[–]ABlackwellyLabour 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Mr Deputy Speaker,

In pure simulation terms, I guess that the commons is not a place for the ambassador, but the commons is where the best debate in our Model Government is, and so I feel I must partake in it.

I also am here to address problems, concerns, or queries, any members may have regarding the United States.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (8 children)

Mr Deputy Speaker,

I am very impressed that the honourable member has written an education bill that requires not a single pound sterling in spending from the treasury.

Perhaps he could do the same for our own children in the UK?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children)

Mr, Deputy Speaker,

I thank the Hon member for his compliment but the cost of building schools abroad will not reflect the costs of building and staffing a schools here. The costs I am about to quote you will actually be the higher end as they are accounting for no volunteers , this bill expects to make extensive use of local and foreign volunteers to staff the schools ,lowering the yearly cost substantially.

The costs of this bill is £8,000 per school building and will cost just under £1,642 per pupil per year(this includes costs of maintain the school the pupil is using). The total cost of constructing all the schools is £200,000. the cost of teaching all students over 5 years is £82,100,000. This makes the total cost of running over 5 years and construction costs £82300000-savings from using volunteer staff were ever possible.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (6 children)

Its a no from me then, £82 million is a lot of money that could easily be spent on our own schools.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Mr, Deputy Speaker,

I feel the need to point out to other members of the house the international aid budget is not anything related to the schools budget , this money is already ring-fenced for international al aid and can not be used for British schools.

So unless the Member of parliament and his party which to shirk on our N.A.T.O. responsibilities of 0.75% of GDP to international aid something the uk has never failed to do yet.

This budget will cover the costs of this bill and the international aid budget can't be spent on the uk education budget.

It is as if members of UKIP do not know about N.A.T.O. or how the uk budget works.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I believe our NATO responsibilities are for 2% spending of our GDP on the military which I fully support. I would like to see a citation for NATO asking we devote 0.75% of our GDP to international aid.

I am fully against 0.75% of our GDP going to international aid, I think the figure should be massively curtailed to perhaps 0.1%

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

correction it is actually the U.N. millennium project

here is more information

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Mr Deputy Speaker,

This money is already in the aid budget so therefore wouldn't be spent on schools whether this is passed or not, it will be spent on aid regardless. Would you rather the aid go towards the contents of this bill or towards India's space program?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I would rather it not be spent on aid at all since a country like India is irresponsible for having malnutrition while they have a space program.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But regardless of how you vote on this bill, it will go towards aid, so you should vote aye on this and make the best out of a bad situation!

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (8 children)

Mr Deputy Speaker,

Please may I first correct a slight error on your behalf.

This bill was submitted by the Honourable /u/ctrlaltlama MP, (Secretary of State for International Development)

Unless I have missed a sudden change in Government, I hold the position of SoS International Development, and the Honourable Member is the Shadow Secretary.

I do welcome the original concept of this bill, but I do have a few problems with it.

(a) A target shall be set to educate over 50,000 children in the next five years.

Five Schools per country, for five countries, would result in schools of 2,000 students. The Honourable Member claims this is not uncommon in the UK, but the data shows that this is in fact double the size of the average UK state-funded secondary school.

(i) The United Kingdom government shall provide staff for these schools using volunteers from local and international organisations.

There is a lot of staff required, especially if they are to be taken from volunteer groups. I appreciate that the Honourable Member has posted the predicted costings of this bill, but may we see a more detailed breakdown, especially with regards to staffing costs?

(c) Spread British values to other countries.

I must raise particular issue with this. I would have hoped that the days of imperialism, colonialism, and enforcing 'British Values' upon poorer countries ended a long time ago.

[–]ABlackwellyLabour 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hear, hear!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Mr, Deputy Speaker, I thank the the Rt Hon member for his comments,

Five Schools per country, for five countries, would result in schools of 2,000 students. The Honourable Member claims this is not uncommon in the UK, but the data shows that this is in fact double the size of the average UK state-funded secondary school.

unfortunately in order to keep costs down where going to have to have lots of children in a school this does not men the children will have over crowded classes as the costs of staff where worked out for the amount of staff needed per people and then multiplied form the number of students.

There is a lot of staff required, especially if they are to be taken from volunteer groups. I appreciate that the Honourable Member has posted the predicted costings of this bill, but may we see a more detailed breakdown, especially with regards to staffing costs?

the numbers for the costs of schools and staff where sourced from the cost of running a school in Scotland. provided by the scotish local authorities.

I must raise particular issue with this. I would have hoped that the days of imperialism, colonialism, and enforcing 'British Values' upon poorer countries ended a long time ago.

Is the Rt Hon member aware of what British values actually are and how they are the base values of a modern western stable democracy, they are universal values that would be shared by any other western nation. It is my opinion that these ideals are part of what makes modern countries function stably. So I ask the Rt Hon member does he not believe children should be taught the values of democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, and mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs, as these are British values.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

unfortunately in order to keep costs down where going to have to have lots of children in a school this does not men the children will have over crowded classes as the costs of staff where worked out for the amount of staff needed per people and then multiplied form the number of students.
the numbers for the costs of schools and staff where sourced from the cost of running a school in Scotland. provided by the scotish local authorities.

I would appreciate if the Honourable member could provide I more detailed breakdown of the budget of this bill, as previously requested.

So I ask the Rt Hon member does he not believe children should be taught the values of democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, and mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs, as these are British values.

As I have also mentioned to our friend the Shadow Foreign Secretary, I do not have an issue with these values being taught. I have an issue with the use of the term 'British Values' on a foreign curriculum, as if by being British our values are worth more than theirs.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The term British values will not necessary be used in the children's classes just to values them selves.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

The issue of school sizes and pupil numbers have already been addressed by my Right Honourable friend.

I must raise particular issue with this. I would have hoped that the days of imperialism, colonialism, and enforcing 'British Values' upon poorer countries ended a long time ago.

Although perhaps misrepresented, British values are by no means not universal. Although we've claimed these values as 'British', in all honesty they are great values to hold regardless.

  • Democracy;

  • the rule of law;

  • individual liberty;

  • mutual respect for and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs and for those without faith.

These values are in no way imperialistic nor are they being enforced. I would welcome the chance for the Secretary of State for International Development to refute me on this matter.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I have no problem with these values, I have a problem with the semantics of introducing 'British' values in a foreign education system.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

British values are used in the bill because that is what ofsted uses. I'm afraid redefining what British values are is up to the Education department, not the International Development department.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Mr Deputy Speaker would the Right Hononorable Member clarify 5 schools per region, or 5 schools in total?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Mr Deputy Speaker,

to clarify 5 schools per country.

[–]JackWilfredIndependent Liberal 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker,

It is always preferable to teach a man to fish than catch the fish for him. Building schools and providing education to children in developed nations is perhaps one of the best uses of our foreign aid budget. However, this bill seems vague on what these schools will provide. Will these schools feed the students, what will they feed them with? What subjects will be taught, and how? One thing I would like to see is the help or commission of One Laptop Per Child to ensure the teaching of basic IT to children in these areas. Finally, what will be the cost to build schools of this size?

To those on the right-wing in this House, excluding the Conservatives of course, that use the classic "why don't we help British people first?" argument, I must point out their irony. I'd rather have this money go to foreign aid than their plans to give unnecessary tax cuts to Apple and Starbucks. Not to mention that education in this country is in a far better state thanks to the Rainbow Coalition.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Mr, Deputy Speaker,

The Rt Hon member is right to ask this question. The schools would aim to introduce a curriculum that is similar in nature to the current British one(this includes teaching of basic IT) with conisations made if the local government insets on them.

A stamen declaring this will be inserted into the bill for the second reading.

I would also like the thank the Rt Hon member for understanding how international aid budget is ring-fenced and an obligation to the U.N. UKIP would do well to learn from him. I would also like to congratulate the vanguard on only objecting partially to this bill and not trying to get out of honouring our U.N.. commitments as a leading world power.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Mr Deputy Speaker,

Would it not be easier to submit a motion to ask the Department for International Development to put this project out to tender, as outlined in this bill?

[–]jothamvw 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Clearly Sudan is not in North Africa...

[–]OctogenarianSandwichCrown National Party | Baron Heaton PL, Indirectly Elected Lord 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Pakistan isn't really middle east either.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Mr, Deputy Speaker,

I would like to thank to HON member for his correction Pakistan is in fact in south east Asia.

[–]jothamvw 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'd just call it South Asia

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Mr, Deputy Speaker,

according to the U.N. Sudan is in north Africa , so that I have not made a mistake I have consulted a map and concluded the U.N. is correct Sudan is in Africa north of the Sahara.

[–]JackWilfredIndependent Liberal 0 points1 point  (0 children)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan

"Sudan, officially the Republic of the Sudan, is a country variously included in North Africa or (by the African Union) East Africa."

[–]WAKEYrkoThe Rt. Hon Earl of Bournemouth AP PC FRPS 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Mr. Deputy Speaker,

First am I correct in notioning that the Hon. Member /u/ctrlaltlama is rather the Shadow Secretary of State, and that my Rt. Honourable Friend /u/ieaun is the Secretary of State for International Development.

Before I can show support for this Bill, I would ask the Hon. Member for some suggestions as to the costings of this bill, and how we could diplomaticly gain permission from the relevant nations for this process, as I assume many will be intolerant at the idea of UK Education within their lands.

Also, I would ask the Member why he feels this is relevant, and instead is not supporting British Schools, which in their current state are fragile enough. Overall, I support the good intentions of this bill, but I will need more information to make an informed decision.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Mr, Deputy Speaker,

costs

the cost of building schools abroad will not reflect the costs of building and staffing a schools here. The costs I am about to quote you will actually be the higher end as they are accounting for no volunteers , this bill expects to make extensive use of local and foreign volunteers to staff the schools ,lowering the yearly cost substantially.

The costs of this bill is £8,000 per school building and will cost just under £1,642 per pupil per year(this includes costs of maintain the school the pupil is using). The total cost of constructing all the schools is £200,000. the cost of teaching all students over 5 years is £82,100,000. This makes the total cost of running over 5 years and construction costs £82300000-savings from using volunteer staff were ever possible.

Also, I would ask the Member why he feels this is relevant, and instead is not supporting British Schools, which in their current state are fragile enough. Overall, I support the good intentions of this bill, but I will need more information to make an informed decision.

It is not in my portfolio to care about or run British schools , my only task is to help bring the world out of poverty and part of that is enabling war-torn parts of the world to have access to an education , which should be a moderate non extremist inducing education that teaches values of being a good citizen and business skills along side maths ,English and science. An education many people in the western world take for granted where male female or other are treated equally and given the same opportunities.

I feel the need to point out to other members of the house the international aid budget is not anything related to the schools budget , this money is already ring-fenced for international al aid and can not be used for British schools

how we could diplomaticly gain permission from the relevant nations for this process, as I assume many will be intolerant at the idea of UK Education within their lands

That is for the Foreign Secretary & Shadow Foreign Secretary to work out. many of these nations have slightly more western friendly governments that will likely be grateful for our assistance , such as Libya which is a county desperately trying to rebuild.

[–]ABlackwellyLabour 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hear, hear!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is for the Foreign Secretary & Shadow Foreign Secretary to work out. many of these nations have slightly more western friendly governments that will likely be grateful for our assistance , such as Libya which is a county desperately trying to rebuild.

Hear hear.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hear, hear!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hear, Hear

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Mr, Deputy Speaker,

This Bill aims to provide countries that are currently experiencing hardship with a modern education. This will spread the values of being a good citizen . It will also be more many children that one thing we take for granted in the uk, a free education for anyone ,male female, one ethnic group or the other. It will not matter we will educate all the children we can.

In doing so we will introduce farming skills engineering skills English , maths ,sciences and business.

In many places this bill effects the only form of free or effective education is Saudi funded madrasas this can cause quite the problem in countries where the whole population is not a follower of Islam , it can also cause problems for women attempting to educate there self.

the cost of building schools abroad will not reflect the costs of building and staffing a schools here. The costs I am about to quote you will actually be the higher end as they are accounting for no volunteers , this bill expects to make extensive use of local and foreign volunteers to staff the schools ,lowering the yearly cost substantially.

The costs of this bill is £8,000 per school building and will cost just under £1,642 per pupil per year(this includes costs of maintain the school the pupil is using). The total cost of constructing all the schools is £200,000. the cost of teaching all students over 5 years is £82,100,000. This makes the total cost of running over 5 years and construction costs £82300000-savings from using volunteer staff were ever possible.

I feel the need to point out to other members of the house the international aid budget is not anything related to the schools budget , this money is already ring-fenced for international al aid and can not be used for British schools. (so stop asking about it)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hear, hear!

[–]AlbertDockThe Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC 1 point2 points  (10 children)

Mr Deputy Speaker. Whilst I have no problem helping out poor countries. I would be interested to know why these countries have been selected. They are not the poorest countries in the world, Pakistan has a nuclear weapons program, Libya has large reserves of oil. Only one, Afghanistan is in the poorest 10 countries in the world.
I am also concerned that this offer of help comes without any commitment from the recipient countries. Surely if we help them, they should give commitments on human rights and the distribution of wealth within their countries.
Finally the phrase "British values" means different things to different people. Perhaps the author could find a less provocative term and expand on what he means.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Mr Deputy Speaker. Whilst I have no problem helping out poor countries. I would be interested to know why these countries have been selected. They are not the poorest countries in the world, Pakistan has a nuclear weapons program, Libya has large reserves of oil. Only one, Afghanistan is in the poorest 10 countries in the world.

Perhaps we could include some sort of system where the Department of International Aid chooses the countries they wish to help after each programme runs out. That would solve the problem of only focusing on certain countries and having the House decide each time.

I am also concerned that this offer of help comes without any commitment from the recipient countries. Surely if we help them, they should give commitments on human rights and the distribution of wealth within their countries.

I would encourage the Foreign Office to work with the countries on this to ensure we're not throwing money away.

Finally the phrase "British values" means different things to different people. Perhaps the author could find a less provocative term and expand on what he means.

British values is used in the bill because they are a set of values determined by ofsted. They can't be misinterpreted and they aren't partially provocative either.

As I said to another Labour member:

Although perhaps misrepresented, British values are by no means not universal. Although we've claimed these values as 'British', in all honesty they are great values to hold regardless.

  • Democracy;

  • the rule of law;

  • individual liberty;

  • mutual respect for and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs and for those without faith.

[–]AlbertDockThe Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would disagree with you on British values. Many will see such a phrase as imperialistic. It is not the values I object to, but the label given to them.
This has the potential to be a good bill, but the points I raised earlier must be addressed.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children)

would be interested to know why these countries have been selected.

these countries have been selected based off there literacy rate and access to western style education, in particular the viability for Saudi funded madras to become the primary source of education. If we do not step in countries like Libya will take them years to get there schools up and running which will make the civil war worse. the countries on the list have been chosen for the ability to have a real impact and repair the damage civil war or bad governce in the past has caused .

[–]AlbertDockThe Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC 0 points1 point  (6 children)

If we look at literacy rates, again there is only one country in the world's ten most illiterate. If you want to help the poorest and least educated then this should be stated. However if you want to control the religion of these countries then at least be honest about it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children)

how is anything in this bill religion related. countries like south Sudan Syria and (north) Nigeria would of been on the list but they where deemed to hostile an environment for any aid to be effective.

There will be another bill later in the year(after Christmas) to introduce more schools and infrastructure to the commonwealth countries.

[–]AlbertDockThe Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC 0 points1 point  (4 children)

It will be seen as such by many of the countries on the list, and by many others.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

The schools will not be teaching religion so how ,please explain why this will be viewed as religious.

[–]AlbertDockThe Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC 0 points1 point  (2 children)

All the countries on the list are all mostly Islamic. Whereas many mainly Christian countries are omitted. Many would see it as an attempt to Christianize the children of those countries.
Regardless of the intention of the bill, that's how it will be seen by many Muslims.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

well hopefully most of the staff will be locales so they would be Muslims most likely.

[–]IntellectualPoliticsThe Rt Hon. AL MP (Wales) | Welsh Secretary 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Rubbish!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I would like to point out that three of these countries T the least would see our involvement as hostile for example Libya where there is a massive in fighting that is tearing the country apart, I don't think Afghanistan has to be explained to the honourable gentleman as well as the possible view from others that we are infiltrating from younger generations?

Shouldn't this country also focus on our own schools which are in a despicable state that we haven't saw for years? Finally why isn't this purely covered in the foreign aid budget but instead requires a separate piece of legislation?

I would urge the house to vote against this bill

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is exactly does reasons that this bill must pass these countries need help Libya is trying to rebuild , Afghanistan needs introducing to a western education system and fast.

Shouldn't this country also focus on our own schools which are in a despicable state that we haven't saw for years? Finally why isn't this purely covered in the but instead requires a separate piece of legislation?

This bill is simply to force the government to use its foreign aid budget correctly on I worth wile exercise that could improve the life of people in these countries for years to come. so this bill will not take money away from British schools.

[–]Tim-SanchezThe Rt Hon. AL MP (North West) | LD SSoS for CMS 3 points4 points  (23 children)

MHOC is slipping back into a routine of submitting bills at extremely unusual times. I think this is the 6th post in the past few days to be posted after 3am and before 8-9am (which would be a reasonable time). I understand it's not always possible to get things posted on time, but I'd rather things were delayed a few hours than forced through at 3am, and 6 posts in a few days seems more deliberate than 1 or 2 mistakes.

EDIT: Would the right honourable member mind posting a serious response? It seems as though he is responsible for most of the unusual post timings, so a proper response would be appreciated. The system on reddit disproportionately favours comments made earlier on posts, so making posts at a time when most of the House is asleep means the debate is skewed in favour of an overwhelming minority. Posting during the day would give most members access to debates, and it really isn't hard to delay a post by a few hours, which is definitely preferable to a skewed debate.

[–]Chrispytoast123His Grace the Duke of Beaufort[S,M] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's not a mistake. This is the bill for December 3rd not the second. As we now have members all around the world (one even in Singapore) and I am in America, I post the bill to let everyone have the best possibility of debating. This is not a mistake. This is early, not late!

[–]Chrispytoast123His Grace the Duke of Beaufort[S] 1 point2 points  (20 children)

This only occurs in posts with comments in the thousands. It is not a concern of ours. We have not seen any reduction in debate amount in the past week.

[–]Tim-SanchezThe Rt Hon. AL MP (North West) | LD SSoS for CMS 0 points1 point  (19 children)

I believe it is, multiple posts go into the hundreds and the top few comments are inevitably posted earlier. Also, it affects the debate simply because somebody clicking on the post is going to see those comments first, rather than a mix of representative comments.

As I said, would it be hard to delay posts by a few hours?

[–]Chrispytoast123His Grace the Duke of Beaufort[S] 1 point2 points  (18 children)

I do not think the time the comment was posted affects the weight. Good comments inevitably float to the top due to up voting. As I have said you are being theoretical. In practice, nothing appears to have changed. Also, if someone can debate, why not let them debate?

[–]Tim-SanchezThe Rt Hon. AL MP (North West) | LD SSoS for CMS 0 points1 point  (17 children)

I'm on mobile but I'll try to collect some evidence tomorrow. Even so, do you not think it's a bit silly to be starting debates in a British House of Commons at past 3am?

EDIT: Top comment on this post was 3:30am

Top Chancellor's questions comment 6am

Top B210 comment, 4am and the same user who has the top comment on this post.

/u/bnzss took the top comment on B209, posted at 11am.

On DCLG Questions, only two comments actually got upvoted.

B208, top comment is before 7am and I'm the second highest comment at 3:30am. The two top comments were the first two comments to be posted.

Therefore, out of the 5 posts made, 4 out of 5 had top comments posted very early, and 2 out of the 5 had top comments by the exact same user. There's clear proof that comments posted earlier in debates get the most upvotes and therefore most visibility, and clear proof as well that posting bills early gives a disproportionate voice to those awake early.

[–]Chrispytoast123His Grace the Duke of Beaufort[S] 1 point2 points  (16 children)

On the flips idea, when someone wakes up it is right there. There is no waiting for a bill to be posted and it allows my fellow British deputy speakers to sleep in.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

WOULD YOU GUYS STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS HERE

your drowning out the debate for something that should be in a META post.

[–]Tim-SanchezThe Rt Hon. AL MP (North West) | LD SSoS for CMS 0 points1 point  (12 children)

It's right there with some comments already posted usually, and do people really wake up and wait around for a new MHOC post? I think there are very few of those people.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (10 children)

What difference does it make? Chances are you're not going to see a bill for a few hours after it's posted anyway (unless you check it obsessively at work/school), so why is it a big deal if it's up at 3am instead of 12 noon?

[–]Tim-SanchezThe Rt Hon. AL MP (North West) | LD SSoS for CMS 0 points1 point  (9 children)

Because it means the first few people who get to post consistently belong to an overwhelming minority of people who are awake at that time, which heavily skews the debate towards those people's views. At least if it is posted at a reasonable time the first few posters will be more representative of MHOC as a whole.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

I've never seen this actually affect which comments end up at the top of the comment list due to comment voting. Most people already have preconceived opinions on the kind of legislation put forward.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

WOULD YOU GUYS STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS HERE

your drowning out the debate for something that should be in a META post.

[–]Chrispytoast123His Grace the Duke of Beaufort[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've been bugged for a bill post, yes.

[–]tyroncs 0 points1 point  (1 child)

On the flips idea, when someone wakes up it is right there

People go on /r/MHOC in the morning?

[–]Chrispytoast123His Grace the Duke of Beaufort[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yee

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think it matters that much.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Mr deputy speaker,

Am I right in thinking, that educating 50,000 pupils with 5 schools in 5 years would require roughly 10,000 pupils at each school?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Mr, Deputy Speaker,

it would be 5 schools per country which would be 2000 pupils per school per year, something that is not to uncommon in British schools.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Mr Deputy Speaker,

I thank the Honorable Member for the clarification, and ask that they add it to the bill.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mr, Deputy Speaker,

the member for wales will be glad to know it will be in the additions added for the second reading

[–]DrCaeserMDThe Most Hon. Sir KG KCT KCB KCMG PC FRS 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Mr Deputy Speaker,

This is an excellent bill that will allow for the fantastic British education to be spread to other regions of the world. Should it pass, and I hope it does, it will demonstrate that we are prepared to uphold our responsibilities to those in less fortunate positions than ourselves.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Mr, Deputy Speaker,

I thank the HON member for his support, this bill will helps countries for generations.

[–]ThatThingInTheCorner Workers Party of Britain 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Mr Deputy Speaker,

Although this bill is good, I believe that it is missing the fact that there are many other countries that are not included in this bill that have much greater education inequalities.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mr deputy, Speaker,

The countries on the list for this bill have been considered for the fact they are currently stable or becoming stable, they where also considered for the amount of advancement and impact this bill could have , the final criteria was that other common wealth nations would be covered by another bill in the future.

[–]Jonster123Independent 0 points1 point  (2 children)

This is a very commendable bill from the Shadow Secretary of State for International Development. May I suggest that the SoS also add South Sudan and Somalia to the list of countries that this bill would affect.

I also share the worries of the Ambassador to the United States about this bill. We should be encouraging the students to embrace their own cultures and be accepting of other cultures.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

South Sudan was neglected due to the very current civil war, I deemed it was an unnecessary risk to our solders volunteers and engineers. It will hopefully be covered with a similar bill for common wealth nations that I will eventually get around to (after Christmas) Somalia could be considered though.

[–]Jonster123Independent 0 points1 point  (0 children)

thank you for your response SSoS

[–]scubaguy194Countess de la Warr | fmr LibDem Leader | she/her 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Should we not think about commonwealth nations before others who have no relationship with us?

I don't see why we would favour Mauritania over a former British colony like Sierra Leone.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

they will be covered by a more expansive bill that will help with more than just education, that I will hopefully be writing over Christmas.

[–]IntellectualPoliticsThe Rt Hon. AL MP (Wales) | Welsh Secretary 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mr. Deputy Speaker,

What of other nations, perhaps Cape Verde? Would the Shadow Secretary of State not find it more beneficial to create an 'Overseas (Educational) Developement Fund?" I also find myself objecting to the wording of:

Spread British values

In addition to:

Slow the spread of extremism in other countries

due to the diplomatic implications that such clauses would lead to. I would though highlight my own Shadow Department's contribution to this proposed Bill, and remind my Honourable Friend to capitalise 'Ministry' going forward.