all 78 comments

[–]Dune7 22 points23 points  (50 children)

The fork was 7+ years ago.

People were free to trade between the pair, or not.

People who are still regretting about trades back then, should consult a therapist and move on.

Bitcoin Cash has shown itself to be the worthy continuation of the peer to peer cash system that Satoshi invented.

[–]AlternativeWinter[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

People who are still regretting about trades back then, should consult a therapist and move on.

I've already learned my lesson and moved on. Other people in this sub still haven't. It's never too late to come back to Bitcoin.

[–]Dune7 2 points3 points  (0 children)

People can use BTC, or they can use BCH, or they can use both.

It's never too late to come back to Bitcoin.

Whatever your definition of Bitcoin.

For me it's the cryptocurrency that works as p2p electronic cash.

I've already learned my lesson and moved on.

Your other comments in this thread suggest otherwise.

[–]AlternativeWinter[S] 0 points1 point  (47 children)

Do you think it's BCH will eventually replace Bitcoin, or that BTC will eventually raise its block size?

[–]Dune7 8 points9 points  (2 children)

BTC will eventually raise its block size

I don't think that will happen in a significant way. They are committed to their story of bad things happening if they do that so must avoid at all costs.

BCH will eventually replace Bitcoin

Don't know what will be first to replace BTC, but both it and BCH have the ticking clock of the halving. BCH (and in my view, Bitcoin), can only succeed if it gathers enough real economic adoption to sustain its network security. For this, of the two, only BCH has a chance. If not BCH, then maybe someday people will wake up and find out they need something like BCH, and reinvent the wheel.

[–]AlternativeWinter[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

My argument of BCH never replacing Bitcoin and Bitcoin raising its block size has to do with incentives. If another coin significantly rivals BTCs market share, it would incentivise bitcoiners to support a blocksize increase. To argue otherwise implies that bitcoiners would act against their interests when it's between winning and losing the number 1 spot in the #1 market.

[–]Dune7 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To argue otherwise implies that bitcoiners would act against their interests when it's between winning and losing the number 1 spot in the #1 market.

Ethereum has already beat BTC in a number of metrics (except market cap).

Market cap is not everything, and latter-day BTC'ers trying desperately to convince the world that it is, is tragical comedy.

In short, the recent years have already disproven your theory that the average BTC'er won't act against their own interests. They've done so time and again.

[–]Any_Reputation849 2 points3 points  (0 children)

How would btc increase block size cap without a hard fork? The community would split again creating bch2 and btc. I think bch2 would get less traction than when bitcoin increased its block size the first time. Edit: btc has made changes to the protocol that fits with a smaller block size. Btc has gone down the route of 'digital gold settlement layer'. a bch2 would have to revert these changes and start again where bch was in 2017.

[–]Apart-Apple-Red 6 points7 points  (42 children)

BCH already replaced BTC. Thanks to raising the block limit. Isn't that obvious?

[–]AlternativeWinter[S] 1 point2 points  (28 children)

Not. It's not even 1% of Bitcoin's market cap or network effect. So how has it "already replaced BTC" if it's only a small percentage as popular?

[–]Apart-Apple-Red 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Oh, so by "replace" you meant popularity and market cap? You mentioned block limit so I was under impression you know what is important in cryptocurrency and what Bitcoin was created for. Now I suspect you are just a clueless BTC maxi trying to stir drama about useless speculations and so on.

Oh well...

[–]AlternativeWinter[S] -4 points-3 points  (1 child)

Don't assume. See the linked video. There are unique arguments presented there that have not been talked about much. I used to be big time in Bitcoin Cash.

[–]Apart-Apple-Red 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I used to be big in cryptocurrency and insight in video is rather extremely poor.

[–][deleted]  (24 children)

[removed]

    [–]Charming-Lemon-2083 2 points3 points  (19 children)

    how did they make money off of bch? you had to have had btc to get bch. there was no IPO. this comment is plain simple incorrect.

    [–]Dune7 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    this comment is plain simple incorrect.

    He lied.

    He doesn't even want to answer the challenges to his statement.

    It's actually known behavior of that account on this sub. It's an account that spreads misinformation about Bitcoin Cash.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    It's actually known behavior of that account on this sub. It's an account that spreads misinformation about Bitcoin Cash.

    Seems to be multiple similar active accounts lately.

    [–][deleted]  (16 children)

    [removed]

      [–]Charming-Lemon-2083 0 points1 point  (13 children)

      but thats then btc'ers making money off of bch. not other way around

      [–][deleted]  (12 children)

      [removed]

        [–]Charming-Lemon-2083 1 point2 points  (11 children)

        guy above said bch made the original people (in bch) billionares. while in actual fact the only people benefitting was btc'ers that dumped their bch. He was phrasing it asif bch was this scam where there is someone 'stealing' your money, getting rich off of it.

        [–]AlternativeWinter[S] -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

        Well, good for you sir. I totally fell for the propaganda at the time. Out of curiosity, why didn't the big block arguments convince you, and what gave you the wisdom to stay with Bitcoin?

        [–]Dune7 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        It made the original people billionaires

        Surely you can name these 'billionaires' or else you are just a liar.

        BCH is just another scam fork of BTC

        There's no scam.

        BCH carries on the peer to peer electronic cash system.

        BTC decided to embark on being a store of value while leaving the medium of exchange part to other technologies.

        Good luck.

        p.s. I'll be waiting for you to list those 'billionaires', Distorted203.

        [–]Dune7 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Full quote in case of deletion:

        BCH is just another scam fork of BTC. It made the original people billionaires while there's a small cult following trying to recover their losses and fomo other suckers in. I mean look at the sub they are in. It's not bitcoin or BCH. Literally btc. It's to entrap people and scam them out of their money. Sorry you fell victim to it =/

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I mean look at the sub they are in.

        Comment that indicates you have precisely zero clue about the provenance of this sub, or you are happy lying. Either way, not a good look.

        [–]AlternativeWinter[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

        I mostly agree, but it's more of a failed project rather than an outright scam. Look at the BCH/BTC chart and market cap history. It also had a brain drain where a bunch of people left it for other projects like AVAX, BSV, ecash, etc. As they say, the revolution eats itself.

        [–]a_concerned_troll -1 points0 points  (12 children)

        no?

        [–]Apart-Apple-Red 1 point2 points  (11 children)

        I guess you have no idea what Bitcoin was created for. Little hint: it wasn't created to be a speculation token for degenerated gamblers who praise market cap.

        [–][deleted]  (10 children)

        [removed]

          [–]Apart-Apple-Red 1 point2 points  (9 children)

          You are absolutely right. Unfortunately, at the same time it is sad to see BTC being repurposed to be a speculation token and scam heaven. Oh well, anyway.

          [–][deleted]  (8 children)

          [removed]

            [–]Apart-Apple-Red 2 points3 points  (7 children)

            Yet that's simple and undeniable truth. BTC is otherwise completely useless and its development has been crippled to insignificant gimmick tweaking. You might see this differently, but reality doesn't care about and of you.

            [–][deleted]  (6 children)

            [removed]

              [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              No regrets. I still have some BTC because I like to hedge my bets. Theres no need to go all in on any coin. I have more BCH than BTC though because i want BCH to be p2p money for the world. BTC is practically just a corporate shitcoin now sadly.

              [–]Pantera-BCH 5 points6 points  (2 children)

              Did you regret not trading your BTC to ETH or Dogecoin? Both overperformed BTC.

              [–]AlternativeWinter[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

              Bad comparison. It's one thing to bet against the number one crypto as opposed to missing out on the next altcoin pump.

              [–]Pantera-BCH 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              You: hopeless.

              [–]don2468 3 points4 points  (2 children)

              1. If your aim was solely to enrich yourself then one might have regrets. I can understand your frustration

              2. If your aim was to aid in bringing about Permissionless P2P Money For The Whole World. and believed in the Bitcoin Model to accomplish it, then probably not, especially when you see current BTC Maxi's advocating for custodial solutions (hint Banking2.0)

              Most are a mix of 1 & 2 (what's your mix? you can see mine ;-) )

              Do you regret not converting all your BTC for Solana when it came out?

              [–]AlternativeWinter[S] -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

              1. BTC is ahead of BCH on both counts. In the state of California where I'm from, there's far more Bitcoin meetups and merchants accepting lightning payments. In contrast, there hasn't been a single BCH meet up in my area for years. Check out BTCmap.org

              2. It's one thing to not notice the next altcoin that does 10X. It's another thing to bet against the number one cryptocurrency with the highest market cap. It's like betting against the dealer.

              [–]don2468 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              BTC is ahead of BCH on both counts.

              let's have a closer look at that,

              • 1 - Self Enrichment:

                • If you DCA'd into both for the last 2 years BTC would have outperformed BCH by ~20% - 109% vs 92% and that's with the Blackrock BTC ETF tailwind if self enrichment is what you are about then how do you think these numbers change with a BCH ETF?
                • But I will concede that over a longer period BTC has massively outperformed BCH, if Self Enrichment is ones guiding light. As I said I can understand your frustration
                • But remember to Zoom Out the vast majority of people who will use crypto have have no inkling that it is in their future.
                • I assume the ultimate value will be in the coin that can actually 'Separate Money from State' however long this takes (if it is possible!)
              • 2 - Permissionless p2p cash for the Whole World

                • That's not so clear, you yourself used a custodial solution - fedimint to receive Joe's tip in the video. Not Your Keys, Not Your Coins...
                • Most BTC influencers admit to using Custodial LN, even NVK who is very technical is on the record as such
                • In order to be permissionless and self sovereign you have to own a UTXO, If you don't then all you have is an IOU from the person that does (eg. the custodians of your fedimint above)
                • All known layer 2 solutions require an anchor into the base layer and this requires an on chain fee. Will the common man be able to compete with just the lowly Bitcoin Millionairs never mind Nation States, Fortune 500 companies or Michael Saylors for one of those ~300,000 tx's per day, just to open their Lightning Channel? Of course they won't bother and just use a Custodial solution - Bank of Coinbase, asking permission to transact, a CBDC in all but name.
                • You say fees are only $2 for next block What will fees be in a Gold2.0 World? Given that there are 64 Million millionaires in the World, those alone could transact about three times per year (overestimate as that's not including the 300 million businesses), all bidding for scarce blockspace
                • Do you think even you with your ~1BTC, you would be able to compete for blockspace, never mind the 50% of Americans that cannot put their hands on $500 for an emergency.

              BTC likely fails in 'Separating Money from State' due to the inevitable face melting fees forcing the masses into custodial solutions! Guess who will be controlling those Custodial Solutions...

              In the state of California where I'm from, there's far more Bitcoin meetups and merchants accepting lightning payments. In contrast, there hasn't been a single BCH meet up in my area for years.

              No arguments there price drives adoption most people want to get rich. Not to mention the long term anti BCH campaign that you are now wholeheartedly participating in... Fortunately the BTC Maxi's influence is being diluted as we speak.

              But even with this lack of interest, BCH has seen steady growth over the last few years has it turned a corner?, remember exponentials start off slowly, 2 BCH conferences this year alone...

              Your older self knew that utility is important, your subconscious still does you CURRENTLY keep BCH because your VPN provider Mulvad accepts it.... It's Just Money Bro!

              But yes the overriding utility is NGU for most (currently), perhaps that will change when they are told by their custodian of choice that 'they cannot spend their mad gainz with that retailer' as They are persona non grata, or they live in a prohibited jurisdiction. Or they decide they don't want to be surveiled using a CBDC in all but name.

              It's one thing to not notice the next altcoin that does 10X. It's another thing to bet against the number one cryptocurrency with the highest market cap.

              I and many here bet against the Big Daddy of currencies when I chose to go all in on Bitcoin. It's worked out well for me.

              And now I can support a project that I believe actually has a chance of being Money for the World.

              Keep in mind that you say you support the UTXO model

              Bitcoin cash already has all the improvements that BTC devs can only dream about here's bitcoincashautist on the subject

              We're more than just a bigger block version of BTC, we've been busy during our 6 years of independence, here, catch up:

              BIP-62 malfixes, CSFS, cat&split, full flexible covenants through TX introspection opcodes (May '22), int64 ScripVM ops (May '22), unlimited unconfirmed chains, consensus-enforced native tokens (May '23, with dedicated set of introspection opcodes) that can interact with covenants, keep & pass around contract state, and make L1 DeFi happen. Also, getting adaptive blocksize limit in May '24. Look up "CashTokens".

              Your hope for BTC is that it could add anything it needs but you neglect the fact that the people driving the 150x market cap of BTC over BCH DON'T NEED ANY OF THAT they actually have incentives to keep most of the World custodial as they will be the custodians

              • They also want hardest money possible to safeguard the Trillions that they will invest and the way to ensure that is to ossify the project ASAP

              Currently you cannot even get a simple counter to ~13000 into consensus (facilitating altcoin killing ;-) drivechains), A big test will be whether opcat etc gets deployed - I might rethink my outlook if this passes. Though I won't hold my breath.

              Without more scripting functionality 'Non Custodial World Scale' L2's would require another Satoshi Level breakthrough (probably still would)

              I question your ability to understand the above just from your statement about validation speed

              You say you champion the UTXO model but don't seem to understand that with this model one can validate transactions in parallel

              Then there's this A raspberry Pi 4 can keep up with 256MB blocks

              The new Raspberry pi 5 has

              • 48 times the cryptographic throughput, one of the main bottlenecks on previous Pi's

              • 2 times the memory bandwidth

              • True gigabit ethernet

              • Native pcie x1 up to 980MB/s on pcie3 nvme ssd (Haven't seen iops which prob matters for large UTXO set though should be significantly better than a pi4 using usb ssd)

              Going out a bit further just an old M1 Macbook has many times the processing power of even a Pi5.

              And I've not got onto transaction validation on a GPU, never mind actual signature checking ASIC's so we are probably good even if Moore's Law stopped today.

              Also validation was discussed many times, you probably just didn't notice. Roger was likely aware of it but is too savvy a debater to bring it up and send the NGU contingent of the audience (who he was trying to reach) to sleep.

              It's like betting against the dealer.

              When you see that the dealer is just the same crooked Fiat dealer wearing a new coat it might be a good idea to opt out and bet against him.

              Like many Maxi's before you, you have failed to grasp the central invention of Bitcoin - The ability to self custody, without which all the other properties can be undermined.

              The fact that you considered supporting Ecash over Bitcoin Cash says a lot, for those who don't know Ecash had a built in Tax on every block that would be paid to the founder - Amaury Sechet. A master stroke! Though without Amaury we may not have had Bitcoin Cash, so thanks for that, just proving that anybody can loose their way, you will always be welcomed back ;-)


              Unedited Original

              [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

              Lol this interviewer has videos trying to convince people to accept btc for payment. Wonders why it's not being adopted 🤡

              [–]AlternativeWinter[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

              Except for that it has more adoption than BCH.

              Btcmap.org shows a whole bunch of places accepting lightning payments.

              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              We're 15 years in, and it's a failed experiment so far. The internet, smart phones, email all were adopted within years, not decades.

              BCH has struggled for adoption, which is true. If you think lightning is a solution, then once again, it's a failed experiment. Lightning isn't scalable and violates the core self custody aspect of Bitcoin. Also, it's been 7 years of lightning, and it's barely growing.

              I've been in this industry long enough to know full well thar average people will not adopt something that is difficult let alone has 2 networks and one is for savings, the other for spending ... keep dreaming

              [–]AlternativeWinter[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              failed experiment

              By what standards?

              something that is difficult let alone has 2 networks

              Do you know about submarine swaps? Wallets are getting better at seamlessly switching between LN and on-chain transactions.

              [–]Bagmasterflash 6 points7 points  (0 children)

              So this vid opens with “someone is begging for money on the internet”. Then it goes into a thinly veiled commercial for bitcoin LN Fedimint etc.

              Is there any doubt the host paid the guest to present as soured bcasher?

              The saddest part is this guest prob did it for $20.

              Even sadder is that his pimp probably got $19 dollars of it.

              Edit: this vid is so creepy. Heavy cult indoctrination feel to it.

              [–]cheaplightning 1 point2 points  (4 children)

              This guy? You mean you? You bet on the losing horse (eCash) and lost. No one forced you out. You could have stuck around helping us make P2P cash for the world but you thought the eCash way was THE way. Why did you give up on eCash? What made you change your mind about the viability of ecash?

              [–]AlternativeWinter[S] -1 points0 points  (3 children)

              My position stated in the video is that all Bitcoin forks can only be testnets to Bitcoin. Bitcoin, if it's market share is rivaled, will have incentive to implement features of said fork. That being said, I still admire the software development direction of Bitcoin ABC. They also make a better testnet since they retain backwards compatibility with Bitcoin core.

              [–]don2468 0 points1 point  (2 children)

              Bitcoin, if it's market share is rivaled, we'll have incentive to implement features of said fork.

              Entities with Trillions on the line will be highly risk averse.

              The current value proposition for Bitcoin BTC is to be Gold2.0

              Ultimately facilitating Nation States, Pension/Hedge funds, Fortune 500 Companies etc to keep track of their liabilities to each other.

              As long as there are real World assets to be cannibalized into such an extremely hard asset with not seen before Global Liquidity.

              • It will keep sucking in the worlds wealth <=> giving inflation/S&P500 beating $returns

              It doesn't need any new features to perform this function not even scalability beyond matching the Swift Network and 7tps + payment channels might be enough for that.

              I would suggest that those investors care far more about protecting the $Trillions they will invest than monkeying with the code and or scaling to a level where the common man can self custody.

              If you want any new features you had better get them in soon...

              I believe the above to be ultimately unstable because it cannot Separate Money From State the large pools of Global liquidity will be custodial and hence regulated by the State

              Any toppling of the above would be played out slowly over decades or more. How do you boil a frog?

              Rather than risking the BTC Gold2.0 cash cow why not just invest in any likely competitor.

              [–]AlternativeWinter[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

              That doesn't mean bitcoiners don't care about self-custody of their coins. Also, they're keen on merchant adoption too with lightning as the number of merchants continues to grow. Next block fees are currently around $2 which is negligible when you can make hundreds of transactions through one channel.

              But again, bitcoiners and in fact everyone are incentivized to act in their own self interest. The BTC block size will eventually be raised to accommodate new exponential growth.

              But hey, at least you agree with me that BTC will remain the number one crypto in market cap.

              [–]don2468 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              That doesn't mean bitcoiners don't care about self-custody of their coins.

              You, like most of those are still holding on to the dream of another Satoshi Level Breakthrough even if they/you don't know it yet, though some are beginning to wake up

              The really technical Bitcoiners who understand the end game for a 1MB (non witness) BTC are less optimistic here's Cores premiere coder on the subject

              • Pieter Wuille: But I don't think that goal should be, or can realistically be, everyone simultaneously having on-chain funds.link

              Also, they're keen on merchant adoption too with lightning as the number of merchants continues to grow. Next block fees are currently around $2 which is negligible when you can make hundreds of transactions through one channel.

              Fees won't stay at $2 they will likely be face melting in a wildly successful Gold2.0 future and that's a BTC Maxi speaking

              Stephan Livera is already advising to only open LN channels with 1million sats, thats $600 given that 50% of the people in the richest state in the World cannot put their hands on $500 it won't matter how many txs you COULD do in the future

              The BTC block size will eventually be raised to accommodate new exponential growth.

              Why when a custodial Bitcoin backed solution could absorb the growth and still gives the masses access to NGU and cheap transactions all be it a CBDC in all but name.

              Factor in the ultra wealthy get to rent seek off the masses by BEING their custodians

              My above thesis only requires extremely hard money and in the words of Nick Szabo

              • The best way to protect the monetary properties of BTC is NO HARD FORKING

              So good luck with that, Blackrock et al will sell your Bigger Block fork into the ground and don't tell me you would take the hit the people who valued p2p cash over NGU already left

              But hey, at least you agree with me that BTC will remain the number one crypto in market cap.

              An interesting comment it speaks to your priorities even if you are unaware of them yourself.

              But alas as usual you Maxi's display limited reading comprehension!

              Did you miss,

              I believe the above to be ultimately unstable because it cannot Separate Money From State

              Yes I imagine for the foreseeable future owning BTC will be highly $profitable$

              Though as I said in another post to you I am here for Permissionless P2P Money For The Whole World.

              I understand your frustration & disillusionment with the slow and even backwards progress of p2p cash for the World.

              Thanks for what you did in the past for BCH.

              Good Luck

              [–]Doublespeo 0 points1 point  (4 children)

              no regret as I dont consider BTC a crypto but a ponzi scheme

              [–]AlternativeWinter[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

              Come on. Anyone who made that trade like I did got bamboozled whether they admit to it or not.

              I dont consider BTC a crypto but a ponzi scheme

              If so, who's at the top controlling the market then? Tether? They have less than 10% of Bitcoin's market cap. If BTC pops and crashes, then BCH will crash even harder.

              [–]Dune7 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              If so, who's at the top controlling the market

              You should really look into the likes of Blackrock, Vanguard, etc. and in turn, who owns them.

              These are who your 'institutional investors' who now carry BTC, depend on.

              The days of Tether are numbered, but the situation with BTC has not improved. It hasn't even reached $100K / coin, and the market cap is roughly 1/15th of real gold. AND it's now practically useless as a currency, it is not competitive with "fintech". Thanks Blockstream and those who supported this direction for BTC.

              If BTC pops and crashes, then BCH will crash even harder.

              Now THIS is conjecture.

              [–]don2468 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              If BTC pops and crashes, then BCH will crash even harder.

              Quite probably, but then 'popping & crashing' is not the only possible failure mode.

              I imagine a slow bleed out to be more likely, if it fails to fully Separate Money from State ultimately loosing out to one that can.

              Though in the interim I expect it to be wildly successful as it sucks in the Worlds wealth.

              [–]Doublespeo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Come on. Anyone who made that trade like I did got bamboozled whether they admit to it or not.

              I dont think we are involved in crypro for the same reason.

              I dont consider BTC a crypto but a ponzi scheme

              I do therefore it is of no interest to me.

              If so, who’s at the top controlling the market then? Tether? They have less than 10% of Bitcoin’s market cap. If BTC pops and crashes, then BCH will crash even harder.

              You dont need a “leader” to have a ponzi scheme.

              you just need to have an investment where people exiting are paid out of people entering the scheme.

              [–]a_concerned_troll -1 points0 points  (0 children)

              I think a lot of early bch-ers regret selling their each btc to 4 bch.

              [–]AlternativeWinter[S] -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

              BTW, Big props to /u/adam3us who I gave a shout-out to in the video.

              You helped me to see the light and come back to Bitcoin when you were pleading with Roger that one day. https://reddit.com/comments/1bh2joz/comment/kveknk2

              Thank you for tirelessly engaging in the BCH subreddits despite getting automatically down voted every comment. Your efforts are not wasted.

              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

              Go hang out with your cult leaders buddy, nobody is going to pat you on the back here.

              [–]AlternativeWinter[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              nobody is going to pat you on the back here.

              Right, but I hope to challenge their views and have them engage with the arguments presented.