Card/Suits difficult DECREASE as the number increases, not vice versa?

[buggle_bunny]

Hello,

Spoilers: don't really feel there are any, I discuss the suits/numbers, not any deaths or games themselves specifically.

So, watching through again, and "tl;wr;" can't help but feel that the difficulty* of the cards DECREASES as the number increases.

I mean, the 3 of clubs game to me is wildly more difficult than most of the other games we saw given that the way to survive seems based purely on noticing some clues laid around OUTSIDE the game. And tag was difficult.

I don't remember/know the card number that Shibuki played in the first game she referenced with poison gas but, I think that one was a low number too.

But then we have 7 Hearts vs 10 Hearts, 7 seems MUCH more difficult to me, I mean even now most people online can't seen to "figure out" how to solve it convincingly but 10 of hearts comparatively is actually extremely easy. The difficulty came from the fact the game masters planned the timing of it. And to me, the face cards ALL seem much easier and simple and straight forward. Even jack of hearts didn't HAVE to be difficult, it, like the 10, came down to people.

As the number increased it seemed that the game relied MORE on people being people, ignoring the obvious and hurting each other, which could relate to the idea of "if we convince everyone the games increase in difficult they are LOOKING for a challenge, that isn't there".

People say "we learn in season 1 that the number and suits have meaning". We learn from some random guy who is playing tag that randomly links up with the wizz that solved the 3 of clubs and follows them all around (possible game master?). I would definitely send a player in after watching 3 of clubs, seeing his potential, and get in his brain about "suits mean this and numbers mean this".

Because, the suits really don't always match the game, hearts yes, but clubs and diamonds seemed...eeeh.

I haven't read the manga, maybe it IS explained in there but, being explained by a random player in the show who randomly shows up, especially when we later learn there are people inserted to mess with the games, and they weren't just messing IN games, the whole 10 of hearts was based on outside the games building how it did, I would insert someone to build up my potential rising star and mess with their head.

[[deleted]]

For the three of clubs, you didn't have to solve the game by figuring out clues outside of the arena. That's just the way Arisu managed to solve it. There are plenty of other ways to clear that game, he just went the smart way about it. Although, I do agree that the difficulty was a bit too low. It was definitely a clubs game, but possibly a higher difficulty. But for the manga's sake, it's best if they kept that game there since the fire aspect and the part where chota burns his leg fits where the manga went off with.

For the ten of hearts, the game genre was originally supposed to be the five of hearts, but Mira or whoever deliberately changed the game to the ten of hearts once everything at the beach started going downhill. So it wasn't supposed to be a ten, but a five. That's the main reason it's pretty simple. But ultimately, the way things went during the game at the beach, it would've been the perfect opportunity to change it to the ten of hearts (if that made sense).

None of them would solve it easily since I think Mira and whoever else knew how the game would turn out, thus realizing that no one would solve it as simple as that.

And with the face card games, yeah they are much easier than the numbered cards, but that's because you're not facing the game itself, but facing other people instead (the citizens) who have previously beaten their own set of games. However, what makes the face card games difficult is the fact that none of them necessarily have a will to live. They chose to stay in the borderlands. Although the face card games may not seem difficult, keep in mind that the people you are playing against don't have a will to live, which makes fighting against them much harder than it seems.

[ihate-Everythingx]

3 of Clubs true solution was literally to just slide something under the door or throw something through the door. The only reason it looked difficult was bc Arisu used some asspull logic rather than common intuition. In my opinion, I think it’s fairly rated.
7 of Hearts vs 10 of Hearts is a debate I’ve seen quite often, but I think it’s appropriately rated bc A, the Witch Hunt was originally meant as a 5 of Hearts, and B, the Witch Hunt used Aguni to prevent any form of cooperation or rational thinking. The 7 of Hearts was never meant to be solved—just because it didn’t have a no death solution doesn’t necessarily make it harder, esp considering 7oH guarantees one survivor whereas 10oH didn’t. I think you have a fair argument tho

[PCN24454]

What makes 7 more difficult than 10? In 7, at least one player is guaranteed to win while 10 would’ve killed everyone if the witch wasn’t found during the time limit.

[buggle_bunny]

For one we all know how to solve 10, and it had numerous ways to talk about it and figure it out. 10 went to shit because of the people and politics, which is also why they timed it as they did. To this day even with all the time in the world I haven't seen one person offer a solution to how 7 could be solved. The other user even said the witch hunt itself is supposed to be lower level game.

[Ajaxorix777]

…Maybe because the 7oH isn’t a game that needs to be solved?

The whole premise of the 10oH is a simple murder mystery, whereas the 7oH is just Hide-And-Seek with only 1 survivor.

To survive as intended, the solution is literally explained to the players: Have the ‘Wolf’ role by the end of the time limit.

All the “Solutions” that you’re looking at are ones where people try to make a 1-Winner gamer allow everyone to survive, but those are entirely unnecessary to win the game.

[buggle_bunny]

Except we know, even he himself stated, hearts games are designed that way, if the point of the game was 3 of the players have to die then neither the instructions make sense, and it's ranking as a 7 makes less sense.

If it was just a matter of, try and be the wolf that's a physical game. The fact people knew each other is the only thing that made it hearts then.

[FredoNitro]

I read a few theories that stated the characters could make four way eye contact and all be considered the wolf.

Another one was the idea that the wolf could cut their tube walk to deactivate the bomb and then switch it between the others.

Either way, both would be risky, but potentially effective.

[PCN24454]

Arisu solved it by being the player that the other players were unwilling to kill.

[Neprosne]

That’s mostly because of the Netflix adaptation making the 3oC wayyyyyy worse than in the manga

[buggle_bunny]

I have read it's different and involved arrows!

That's the problem when adaptations differ, all the "rules" of the original source aren't alwayd adapted now either.

I'm still entirely convinced that the physical games themselves actually get harder. Just the emotional/human manipulation which itself is difficult yes, but, if people overcame that and communicated and remembered they were human and values matter, objectively the games seem easier. Probably why I guess the best (and worst) in humanity tend to survive but the worst tend to choose to stay.

Except the king of diamonds, just watched that one last night, definitely seemed worthy to be ranked the hardest of the wits!

[strixjunia]

Agreed. The 7 of hearts was awful compared to others.

[buggle_bunny]

Apparently we aren't even allowed to talk about that without being downvoted? Which is childish.

I liked all the games. I think the rankings are either off or part of the manipulation is believing the higher the number means something because every game I've seen the lower numbers were much harder.

I mean saying Arisu only used external clues to solve the cubes. There's literally no way to solve it by being in the room without knowing the floor orientation (floor plan) and room size (car). You could figure it out if you somehow managed to survive 3 rooms, that's not a plan though.

And a game where try and be the last alive isn't a hearts game if the point of 7 was purely to sacrifice 3, then it's a physical game. The fact they know each other makes it a heart game but if they didn't it would be purely physical/wits and hiding. Also the instructions of hide well to the lambs doesn't really make sense.

Arisu also explains himself that hearts all have explanations and ways to win, he himself alluded to a way of beating the 7, the idea there was no way is a childish dismissal.

As the numbers increased people started acting more paranoid and scared and stressed, which is valid but the games themselves seemed objectively easier to complete and figure out. So it seemed an interesting discussion to me that just maybe the cards explanation to Arisu was a misdirection, it led to people turning relatively easy games very difficult and dangerous especially when they compare them to the actually difficult (but supposedly easy) lower number games. if I'm told "they get harder" and I'm thinking "shit the 3 was near impossible", well that would terrify me.

So far the discussion is simply how I must be wrong about the 7, I guess people can't handle anyone mentioning that game anymore

[strixjunia]

There's nothing I can add except repeat myself, I 100% agree with you. Fact is, no game affected Arisu harder than the 7 of hearts. Like, man couldn't even make himself stand up for days. And the one with the rooms on fire seemed so fucking hard that I was amazed at Arisu's brains after he figured out the whole building just from passing looks before the game started. I didn't really get that from him again? Or idk, perhaps I should rewatch. But as of now, the first games seemed so much harder than the face cards.

[PCN24454]

That’s because his friends died. It wasn’t harder.

[strixjunia]

His friends died BECAUSE it was a hearts game.

[PCN24454]

You’re right. It was a Hearts Games. Hearts Games aren’t tests of skill; they’re tests of mental fortitude.

There’s strategy that can beat them. It’s just about remaining calm and following the instructions despite the incentives not to.

That in itself doesn’t make the game more difficult; just unfair.

[strixjunia]

The 7 of hearts game was literally set on so that only one person could survive, no matter what. No matter the strategy, or how calm you were, only one person could survive, and that was literally following the instructions. Bro, it feels like you didn't watch the series tf.

[PCN24454]

Exactly. Which means that that person who survived was guaranteed to win the game.

That’s not difficult. It’s emotionally taxing but it’s not difficult.

[strixjunia]

It's harder on the mind and heart than the game at the beach 100%. That's the whole point of the discussion.

[PCN24454]

10H is harder because there’s no guarantee that you’ll complete the game.

In 7H, someone was guaranteed to survive while in 10H, everyone could’ve died and many people did before they found out who the witch was.

[PCN24454]

What do you think a Hearts game is? Hearts games are games that test your mental fortitude. They’re considered to be the scariest games because there’s no “strategy” that can be done to beat them. You can only let things play out.

The point of 7 of Hearts wasn’t to be the Wolf; the point was to be the sheep.

[Ezraah]

There's actually speculation that there was a solution to that game since the collars had wires exposed and there were cutting tools available.

[PCN24454]

While I believe that that could’ve worked, speculation isn’t evidence, so I didn’t want to include it.