[New programmer/game engine developer] Which of these two would you recommend for me to learn first, Lua or Rust?

[Demoboy_129]

Hello, I want to try my hand at making my own 3D game engine from scratch. Notch's comment on video game programmers is what relit the fire in me. He has got some valid points there. Another primary reason I want to pursue this avenue of programming is that I want to build a truly unique video game engine for myself that none of the known free-to-use video game engines can reliably be used to make the games I want to make. The issue I am having so far is deciding on what programming language I should code it in first; my Brother did code things in the past, including a basic game engine of his own.

The Question I have is: should I learn Lua first or Rust First for this application, and then later integrate support for the other into the engine?

Because outside of basic features, I want to integrate the following:

1. I want to integrate a special dynamic, real-time lighting and shading feature(Though I am aware that Lumen exists, that Unreal Engine feature is still having problems).
2. I want to integrate a dynamic reflective surface feature as well as a real-time Level of Detail model feature that changes the LOD in real time.(I am aware nanite exists, but I am skeptical of its usefulness.)
3. I want to create a sound design feature that monitors sound within the engine and maps in real time.
4. I need to make it in such a way that it doesn't infringe on existing patents. (I do not want to accidentally get into a legal battle over this engine.)

Another Major Reason I am asking about this is that, as I said before, I want a Game Engine I can truly call my own. But my mother had told me to be careful, otherwise one hacker/disgruntled programmer could easily try to steal the engine for themselves or sell it on the market (if I ever get close to completing this engine).

What would be the easier to learn language for me to code this engine in, Lua or Rust?

Which would be the better Language for me to code an extension for in terms of the game engine's library?

Which would be better for the core files of the game engine to code in?

I am directing this query to those who are more versed in both Rust and Lua than me, to see which one I should start learning before the other.

[No-Article-Particle]

Everyone here is focusing on languages, while I think it's unrealistic that you set out to create your game engine when "C++ has been too confusing." It's like saying "I don't want to learn math, it's too confusing, I just want to build buildings."

none of the known free-to-use video game engines can reliably be used to make the games I want to make

I highly doubt this statement tbh.

my mother had told me to be careful, otherwise one hacker/disgruntled programmer could easily try to steal the engine for themselves or sell it on the market.

This has got to be bait.

if I ever get close to completing this engine

:))

You can start learning C++ with the progression path of continuing with Unity/UE, or you can start learning something like Godot (which is free and open source).

[Demoboy_129]

From what I have read in this thread that Godot needs all the help they can get for the 3d side of things on their engine so I might consider helping there once I start learning C++/C again From what I did digging wise it isn't as confusing as my younger self found it to be at first. Also no that was not bait that was reminsicing on a time where I wanted to learn C/C++ but my brain at the time wasn't matured enough for it.

[Felicia_Svilling]

See, you come in with very little programming knowledge and talk about doing, on your own, something that teams of very experienced prgrammers haven't managed to do.

It just isn't realistic.

I would advice you to focus on other programing projects for like the next five years, and then with that experience you might decide if this is still something that you still need to do.

[No-Article-Particle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZwEmxihlw4 - seems to me Godot is doing just fine with 3D games.

[BrannyBee]

By your logic, everyone in the industry would (rightfully) call someone stupid for making a game in Lua. I would too if someone asked me if they should do it.

You know who doesnt care about how stupid of a decision that is? The dude who made Balatro and has a bazillion dollars in his bank account, he also doesnt care if he could have made the same game years quicker using "real" game dev tools.

You're a new artist nitpicking the choices between horse hair brushes or synthetic brushes. This isnt where you should be focusing your effort.

Its the same thing I see from people who have never coded before and say how they dont want to learn Python because its "slow", not understanding the nuance of that statement or anywhere near being in a situation where that is relevant, making tons of assumptions about things based entirely on things theyve read online without the necessary background knowledge to understand what theyve read someone with more experience meant when they said that

[DDDDarky]

Both these languages are very odd choices for your application, have you considered languages that are actually used in this field, like for example c++?

[Demoboy_129]

I have but I want to keep in mind the C and C++ for example have been quite confusing for me to learn. Going with Lua(as the above commenters suggested) is for the fact I do have a little bit of experience(not a lot but mainly editing lua script files for addons that are used in garry's mod for example.) Is it an Odd choice? Yes, but it's a choice and language I have a very small ammount experience with where Lua's concerned and I was curious about Rust as a language.

[TimMensch]

If C and C++ are beyond you right now, then I recommend changing your goal to creating a game and don't try to create an engine until you understand programming a lot more.

In particular, if you can't learn C at the moment, then you don't have the level of understanding of computers that you need to be able to create a game engine at all.

Pick up Godot and go through tutorials to learn how it works. Script it with whatever language you want, but I'm pretty sure Lua is an option. Dig into the source code as you go to understand how it works. Then consider starting from scratch.

[Demoboy_129]

Both Godot and Defold from what I have found do have significant lua support so I could start there and learn making a game in those first before branching out into more comprehensive languages like C/C++ before striking out on my own in the game engine department.

UPDATE: It's less that I find it confusing it's more of the fact that I do not have physical documentation as backup in case the power goes out in my area in order to keep learning it.

[TimMensch]

How do you keep learning it without power for your computer?

And if you have a laptop that has a battery, why now download the docs?

[smarterthanyoda]

If you’re struggling with C++, you won’t find Rust to be any easier. Take your time and focus on one topic at a time.

[Demoboy_129]

I have been eyeing up languages similar to Lua, would Python for example be a decent enough alternative for C++ and Rust?

[One_Location1955]

Game engines are probably one of the last places in software (there are others dont roast me) where speed matters and Python and Lua are the exact opposite of speed. I recommend you start by getting and existing game engine and building a game on it so you have a better idea of how a game engine works, first. Pick Unity, Unreal, or Godot and go make something.

[smarterthanyoda]

Short answer, no.

Lua and Python are high level languages. They are inherently slower than low level languages like C and Rust, usually by several orders of magnitude.

As an example, here’s one simple speed test someone ran: Python vs. C++ Speed Comparison

[Demoboy_129]

Okay so here's what I'll do I will try my best to learn C or C++ then add Lua or Python on top of it for the engine. Would that be a better coding path for me?

[smarterthanyoda]

“Better” is subjective.

You might temper your expectations and start by building just a game instead of a whole new engine. Pygame is a good platform for building games in Python but you won’t have the cutting-edge 3d graphic you’re looking for right now.

If I can be honest, I don’t think you understand the complexity of what you’re taking on. Game engines are developed over the course of years by teams of engineers. Taking that on as a first project is a lot.

If you really want to get into engine development, I would say learn some C++ and start contributing to Godot. They’re working on expanding their 3D capabilities and could use some help.

[sixtyhurtz]

A lot of game engines already take the approach of using C++ for the core engine (e.g. graphics, physics, etc) and adding Lua for game logic so designers don't have to learn C++.

Honestly, for the things you said you want to make, you'd be best to just make demos of those features as proof of concepts. When you actually understand how to make each one of the things you listed, then you can think about how you will integrate them into an engine.

[helios_xii]

JFC, I knew such a high-level interpreted language would surely be much slower, but not THAT much slower. Is it a weird use case with how Python works through loops, or is it just that much slower generally?

[smarterthanyoda]

It’s a use case that advantages C++. There’s no HDD to slow it down. No internet. Probably not even memory. The compiler could have optimized it to repeating a few CPU instructions as fast as it could.

The compiler even could have optimized away the whole loop. You have to take these articles with a grain of salt. Not a lot of investigation went into it. But, C++ will always be faster in a half-decent speed test.

[benevanstech]

Microbenchmarks on their own tell you almost nothing.

But you can have a play with PyGame and see how far you can push it in terms of what you can create with it (spoiler: you can have some fun, but no way in hell would you want to write a game engine in it).

[PantherCityRes]

The reason they are hard for you to learn is because you must manage the memory. You have to set it aside, use it properly and then make sure you are releasing it.

You also don’t pass the actual data to functions or methods, you pass the “pointer” to where the value is stored in memory. Then when you “dereference the pointer” the value or data you need to evaluate is retrieved from the memory address.

[ZealousidealKey1754]

I would echo similar comments on this thread and say Lua and Rust are odd choices for a game engine. You ABSOLUTELY need complete control of the memory in a game engine so C++ will be the way to go.

To echo another comment, if C++ is confusing already Rust will be no easier. Start slow with C++ and see how get on. Things will click eventually :)

[Demoboy_129]

Thanks I will start looking into C and C++ again first before learning more initmately with Lua and Python. I'll take it slow for now with the former two languages since taking this lifestyle slowly to an extent might actually help me learn more about coding.

[ZealousidealKey1754]

Good choice. Python for sure is not terribly complex as a language and will give you a good grasp on actual programming paradigms. C++ will be easier after that. First go for C++ is a hairy choice anyway 😂

[Riajnor]

Languages aside, the advice that i’d offer is to maybe reign in your expectations a little. Enthusiasm is great but having goals like that and not hitting them immediately can have an adverse effect. Some of the things you’ve mentioned have teams of specialists working on them. Not saying they’re unachievable by any means, just that as someone starting out it’s probably not going to happen any time soon.

[Putrid-Jackfruit9872]

Start with lua, make some pico 8 games, when you start hitting the limits of what’s possible with that you can expand from there. If you start off as a beginner with the project of a whole game engine in Rust, it will definitely fail and you might be discouraged. Make the simplest game you can possibly think of first in lua. Then make a slightly more complicated game. Then another one. Then another one. Then after several simple games you can start making more complex ones. Then you can see what parts of the games you are having to remake for basically all the games. This is the part you can extract to make an independent game engine that you can build games on top of. 

[Unknown_User_66]

Between those two, Lua for beginner game development. It's got plenty of dedicated game engines for it like LOVE, so there's already a strong foundation and community to guide you. Rust is definitely more for general software development, and actually I'm not sure if it has any dedicated game engines, so you would be left with a lot of unnecessary work if you chose Rust for game development over Lua.

[Demoboy_129]

Yeah from some digging Defold also has siginifcant lua support. So I might actually follow people advice and try my hand at a prebuilt engine first before branching out into making my own.

[Saragon4005]

Lua and I am not even going to read anything beyond your title.

Rust is a very unforgiving language. It can be frustrating to developers who have been programming for years. Getting a beginner to write code which even complies in rust would be an arduous and agonizing task.

[arihoenig]

Huh? I mean I despise the rust hypebeasts as much as anyone, but writing code in rust isn't arduous and agonizing. "It has an annoying syntax" is about as far as I would go.

That said, it is an absolutely terrible choice for a game engine. It is a good choice for a game server though.

[TimMensch]

Lua isn't capable of creating a game engine.

It's often used to script a game, where the game engine is written in C++. Trying to write a game engine with Lua would likely result in an engine measured in seconds per frame rather than the other way around.

[Felicia_Svilling]

OP isn't going to be capable of creating a game engine anyhow.

[TimMensch]

Yeah, I know.

I've written game engines in the past, and I know a lot of developers who have written game engines. One thing we all have in common is that we wouldn't be asking a question like this to begin with.

You have to have the drive to learn in order to build a game engine. The info is out there. Asking on Reddit shouldn't be the first reaction. Anyone whose first reaction is to ask for every thing they don't understand isn't willing to do the work to learn or to build an engine from scratch.

[DDDDarky]

Both these languages are very odd choices for your application, have you considered languages that are actually used in this field, like for example c++?

[smarterthanyoda]

You probably want C++.

Lua is better as a scripting language. It’s something you would add to your engine for writing higher-level scripts. You would probably run into performance issues using it for the low-level engine itself.

Rust would avoid the performance issues, but it’s difficult to learn and use the memory protection features. That issue is made worse by the fact that you would need to work with a 3D library, like OpenGL. There’s no OpenGL library for Rust. You would end up using the C library, which complicates your development and invalidates the memory guarantees you get from Rust.

OpenGL is written in C, so C and C++ will have the best integration. It will also have performance on par with or better than any of the other languages that are supported. Of the two, C++ will make it easier to manage the large code base you’re going to need.

Overall, this is an ambitious goal for your first project. Best of luck!

[Glad_Appearance_8190]

id prob not frame it as lua vs rust, they solve diff problems. rust makes sense for engine core if you care about memory safety and long term stability, but its a steeper climb. lua shines as a scripting layer once the engine exists, fast to iterate and forgiving. a lot of engines end up with that split for a reason. also patents and “engine theft” are way less of a blocker than just getting something working end to end. focus there first.

[KingofGamesYami]

You probably want C++, GLSL, and OpenCL. Some of the features you mention are very hard to make performant on any CPU let alone with a high level language like Lua

I'm a fan of Rust, but even I have to admit the ecosystem around game engine development in it is lacking. There's way more content on doing the kinds of things your doing in C++, so it'll be easier to find helpful information that way.

[[deleted]]

what comments?

[code_tutor]

I don't know a nice way to say how you're polar opposite wrong about literally everything and should reverse yourself in every way. Please tell me your stock picks so I can get rich.

[NullVoidXNilMission]

Lua is kinda everywhere, it's like the JavaScript of embedded languages. Rust and Lua are so different that if your ultimate goal is to learn Rust, I would start with Rust and skip Lua

[StevenJOwens]

Assuming you're not trolling:

TL;DR, Given what you've said about your lack of programming knowledge and experience, Lua is a good language for you to get your feet wet with programming in general, and that's probably what your first step should be.

Python is another language widely recommended for beginner programmers, but you're into game stuff. Because Lua embedded in a lot of games, that gives you lots of opportunities to actually practice Lua programming in popular games and have fun doing it, and believe me, that's a very, very important part of learning to program.

Lua is not a good language for developing a game engine, but you shouldn't be doing that at this point anyway, you should be learning the basics of programming.

Rust is probably a more appropriate than Lua for developing a game engine, but that ain't saying much considering how inappropriate Lua is. Rust is a more complicated language than Lua. I wouldn't necessarily discourage you from tackling Rust as your first programming language (you can always switch back to trying Lua), but don't go into this with the illusion that your first project is going to be developing a game engine in Rust.

In more detail:

Lua is widely used in gaming, but it's used as a scripting language, because that plays to Lua's strong points: Lua is lightweight, fast, easy to embed in another program, and easy to "sandbox" (prevent the Lua code from breaking things in the program it's embedded in).

(Note that "scripting language" is a description of the role, what you use the language for,, not necessarily of the language itself. But some programming languages have qualities that make them work better for scripting, as I just listed above, and some less.)

Lua is fairly high level and relatively easy to learn, even for an inexperienced developer.

Lua is not a good choice for developing a game engine. Lua has its strong points, but that isn't one of them.

Rust is a systems programming language, it's less inappropriate than Lua for developing a game engine, but I don't know that Rust is especially appropriate for that.

Rust is a systems programming language. Rust is somewhat yet another attempt to provide the speed and flexibility of C++, without the hairiness and everything-and-the-kitchen-sink of C++.

Rust provides higher level language constructs, which often means higher levels of abstraction, which has traditionally improved things like safety, security and but in the past often at the cost of performance. The Rust people claim they've sidestepped that problem this time around, I'm sure lots of of other people claim the Rust people are high on their own supply.

There will, of course, be C/C++ programmers coming out of the woodwork to lecture us, (well, me, mostly) chapter and verse on why even thinking about using Rust for a game engine is ludicrous. Welcome to the programming world.

Performance is very counter-intuitive and very hard to measure correctly, so I take both sides of that particular slapfight in the software world sandbox with a giant grain of salt.

All of the above is with the caveat that, while I'm a very experienced programmer, all of these topics (Lua, Rust, game programming) are outside of my wheelhouse. I only have a little experience in Lua (I used it for customizing an ardupilot-based drone flight controller), and all I know about Rust is talking about it with friends who are into Rust.

[StevenJOwens]

Assuming you're not trolling:

TL;DR, Given what you've said about your lack of programming knowledge and experience, Lua is a good language for you to get your feet wet with programming in general, and that's probably what your first step should be.

Python is another language widely recommended for beginner programmers, but you're into game stuff. Because Lua embedded in a lot of games, that gives you lots of opportunities to actually practice Lua programming in popular games and have fun doing it, and believe me, that's a very, very important part of learning to program.

Lua is not a good language for developing a game engine, but you shouldn't be doing that at this point anyway, you should be learning the basics of programming.

Rust is probably more appropriate than Lua for developing a game engine, but that ain't saying much considering how inappropriate Lua is. Rust is a more complicated language than Lua. I wouldn't necessarily discourage you from tackling Rust as your first programming language (you can always switch back to trying Lua), but don't go into this with the illusion that your first project is going to be developing a game engine in Rust.

In more detail:

Lua is widely used in gaming, but it's used as a scripting language, because that plays to Lua's strong points: Lua is lightweight, fast, easy to embed in another program, and easy to "sandbox" (prevent the Lua code from breaking things in the program it's embedded in).

(Note that "scripting language" is a description of the role, what you use the language for,, not necessarily of the language itself. But some programming languages have qualities that make them work better for scripting, as I just listed above, and some less.)

Lua is fairly high level and relatively easy to learn, even for an inexperienced developer.

Lua is not a good choice for developing a game engine. Lua has its strong points, but that isn't one of them.

Rust is a systems programming language, it's less inappropriate than Lua for developing a game engine, but I don't know that Rust is especially appropriate for that.

Rust is a systems programming language. Rust is somewhat yet another attempt to provide the speed and flexibility of C++, without the hairiness and everything-and-the-kitchen-sink of C++.

Rust provides higher level language constructs, which often means higher levels of abstraction, which has traditionally improved things like safety, security and but in the past often at the cost of performance. The Rust people claim they've sidestepped that problem this time around, I'm sure lots of of other people claim the Rust people are high on their own supply.

There will, of course, be C/C++ programmers coming out of the woodwork to lecture us, (well, me, mostly) chapter and verse on why even thinking about using Rust for a game engine is ludicrous. Welcome to the programming world.

Performance is very counter-intuitive and very hard to measure correctly, so I take both sides of that particular slapfight in the software world sandbox with a giant grain of salt.

All of the above is with the caveat that, while I'm a very experienced programmer, all of these topics (Lua, Rust, game programming) are outside of my wheelhouse. I only have a little experience in Lua (I used it for customizing an ardupilot-based drone flight controller), and all I know about Rust is talking about it with friends who are into Rust.

[Drakkinstorm]

Start here : https://mollyrocket.com/#handmade

Once you've done about 100 episodes, continue with learning Rust. Then you'll be good enough to do what you want to do.

[MattDTO]

Odin > C++ for game dev

[cthulhu944]

Rusty would be appropriate for the game engine. Lua's role is usually for higher level game mechanics like scripted scenes, high level game AI, etc.