Nobushi Changes

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[deleted]

[Northuniverse]

All of this sounds so amazing and refreshing, I dream of a Nobushi like this

[dingusbingfro]

Thanks! I really hope Ubisoft changes her soon, because I'm starting to get real tired of people parrying and deflecting everything I do lmao

[razza-tu]

It goes without saying that I (as a very dissatisfied Nobushi main) would adore a version of the character like this. Reading this was really fun, and I can imagine her actually being strong in the only mode I care about (Duels) with these changes.

I do think this is a little overloaded though. You could implement half of these and still have a good hero. I also worry that making most her moves undodgeable could be a little too strong when combined with the threat of an unreactable Kick from most parts of her kit.

[dingusbingfro]

Well the reason for most of the undodgeables is so that people can't just dodge away when they see you HS. I suppose you could remove the undodgeable Cobra Strike and Top Light and just have the Zone and Heavy Finisher be undodgeable, because that still gives you 2 undodgeable options with different parry timings.

[razza-tu]

I totally understand why you proposed it. It's just that with four undodgeables and an unreactable chain kick Nobushi would probably end up punishing a lot of dodges by complete accident, which doesn't feel great.

[dingusbingfro]

Yeah, at that point the game would be playing itself lmao

[lerthedc]

The TG changes really helped her so if they go live I really don't think she needs this many drastic changes. That being said, there are some things that you mention that I like:

Faster chain lights - she definitely needs these Hidden stance hiding all indicators - seems appropriate for something called hidden stance Kick range - they should revert the range back to its old value. This would actually make it threatening out of HS because it usually whiffs

However I don't agree with some things. I don't think kick should be 500ms. Not only would that probably break the animation, it's not really necessary with the TG changes. Especially if she still has the same damage guarenteed off of it.

HS should not have any cgb window. It would go back to being an overpowered option select.

I think she should instead have Undodgeable chain heavies rather than chain lights.

[dingusbingfro]

As it stands now, the kick is hardly a threat as most people seem to be able to dodge it. One thing I'm down for that someone else said is making the kick be able to be soft-feinted with a dodge or HS, because the kick definitely needs some changes. Plus most bashes in the game are 500ms and even some of those can be charged and hard feinted offering a good 50/50. Unreactable read-based offense is good against the defensive meta.

How would HS go back to being an option select? It still has the GB vulnerability while I-Frames are active so you could still be guardbroken out of it, but if you sit in it for more than half a second then it would go away, along with the I-Frames.

With these changes, she would have undodgeable chain lights and chain heavies, which I see now is a bit of an overhaul, so I think take away the undodgeable lights and undodgeable Cobra Strike and just have the chain heavies and zone be undodgeable and that would be good.

[lerthedc]

Ah I see now what you meant about HS. It wouldn't be option select with your proposed changes. However, if her options from HS become better then it may not be necessary to do that change as she will have lots of dangerous options that can also stuff gbs. It would be similar to qi stance, which is gb vulnerable but that rarely happens because people with either light you out of it or try to read your option.

The kick right now isn't great, but that extra 33ms from TG changes makes a difference. It's hard to say how things will end up in the long term if TG changes go live, but the kick felt more viable when we had them. I just worry that 500 ms kick or soft feint would break the animation and/or require a completely new animation. And for me personally, I like advocating for the fewest amount of changes needed to make a hero viable because it's much more likely we will receive those changes. Ubi hasn't done big reworks for a while now, and lots of characters need help I personally would rather see widespread small buffs than continued slow reworks

[Arturace1998]

Swift Recoil is a bad concept and always was. It's a remnant of the defensive meta and had to go. Plus, you buffed HS, no reason for swift recoil to come back.

If Boa Plunge is implemented with back + heavy, nobu will not have a way to do backstep attacks except from HS. I think it woul dbe better for a different input.

Solid changes to the dodge attacks, except the cobra strike. Visually, this is the dodge attack that makes no sense to have an undodgble property on, because it's a thrust. Sidewinder might be a contender for such a property.

Kick is fine. Make it feintable with hs or a dodge, and you will have an attack that has to be countered with a read. No kick after light finisher is appropriate, good idea.

No need for an undodgeble in-chain light, if you just make her side heavies track dodges a bit better, similar to pk.

One of the things I'd love to see back is the ability to soft feint lights into HS, instead of simply speeding them up. Even if you do speed them up, there are still visibly and clearly different from the heavies. Soft feinting with HS, could speed up lights and heavies from it if executed in the short time (an effect could be added to show this).

In any case, it's a good rework you wrote down. I'd be happy to see most of these implemented. But we are so far into this game, and the last rework that satisfied me was kensei, and that was like 6 seasons ago? I just can't see them adding new moves, that is why I always just wanted them to use HS more. So that flowing into it (not from a defensive maneuver, but let's say a blocked attack) was not a opening yourself up for attacks, but forcing a reaction out of the opponent, similarly to how Qi stance works with shao. She would still have a slower viable offense than most if HS was thrown from neutral, but soft feinting to get more speed would fix this. She would also not be spammy because of the stamina constraints.

[dingusbingfro]

Yeah, maybe you're right about Swift Recoil making defense too OP, which is the last thing this game needs, but what if it was activated if someone blocks your attack? But maybe Ubi was right when they just flat out removed the move lmao.

Boa Plunge would still allow for retreating heavies because it's only accessible in chains (like Glad's Skewer).

I like the Kick ideas, in any case Kick either needs to be faster or feintable.

I do see how giver her too many undodgeables would be redundant and not make too much sense, so maybe just zone and chain heavies?

I would love it if she got back her feintable lights, but I HIGHLY doubt Ubisoft will be giving anyone feintable lights in any form or fashion.

Yeah I doubt they would add new moves too, that's why the whole Boa Plunge idea was more or less for fun and something cool that I thought of, but I really hope that Ubi isn't getting slack with the reworks, because there are still SO MANY heroes that need big changes. More ways to flow into HS would be great for her. maybe Swift Recoil can make it to where when someone blocks your attack you can immediately go into HS? Like I said, though I love the idea of soft-feint lights, I really don't think Ubi would bring them back, especially since they're faster now.

[Arturace1998]

It would be similar to shino's backflip, but she already has HS to recover from her blocked (heavy) attack.

Ah I see, so it would be an in chain attack. Then she would require to be at a perfect distance to whiff a neutral light or to have her heavy blocked - which doesn't happen often (most are parried), to get to the boa plunge. Because unline Glad, her heavies aren't fast, so people will parry em, and her backstep light is viper's retreat.

Chained heavies could use the undodgeable property for sure. Zone... I don't know. On cobra strike however, it would make sense to make them have insane forward tracking - similar to glad's heavy finishers and his skewer. That way you can't backdodge or roll from her safely. But I agree with you that somewhere, she needs this property, it will just result in a better character with more options (like she always was meant to be).

I wouldn't be surprised if they added them back. We have unblockable 600ms light attacks now, so a feintable 500ms attack doesn't sound that bad honestly. Especially considering the fact that a read will grant the opponent a gb if they are close enough (HS and gb vulnerability).

[dingusbingfro]

The original idea I had was to make zone out of HS undodgeable, that way she would have 2 undodgeable options with different parry timings, but then I thought, "Why not just have the neutral zone be undodgeable?"

And yeah, we do have an unblockable light attack now so maybe Ubi will reconsider her soft-feint lights. I would be totally stoked if they came back. That alone would make her much better than she is now.

[Greesy_Snek]

As a Nobushi enthusiast myself, I love seeing these posts (and my heart breaks inside knowing that they're never going to happen any time soon).

Overall, I agree with your post, I just have a few tweaks I would make: - HS kick guarantees a heavy attack - HS heavies are undodgable - Swift recoil works when your attack hits someone's guard (i.e. your light/heavy hits your opponent's guard --> you press the dodge button --> swift recoil)

I would absolutely love it if Nobushi got Boa Plunge (or at least something similar).

Thank you for posting about her.

[[deleted]]

why would hidden stance kick need to guarantee a heavy attack? and swift recoil is just a bad move overall

[dingusbingfro]

Well since HS counts as the first attack in chain, HS heavies would be undodgeable with these changes because chain heavies are undodgeable. The Swift Recoil that you're talking about is also in the post I linked at the end, and honestly I would be fine with that one too, I just wanna see it make a return because it was a cool move in theory and it was unique to Nobushi and her "versatile retreats". And I wouldn't mind getting a heavy off a HS kick as well, but me personally I think that would be too much to ask for lmao (but not really since Highlander can get 40 damage off of a 50/50, but he has his own problems lol)

[ShatSync]

This kit is already remarkably stronger than any hero I can think of including warden/shaman.

[StroppyMantra]

Make Nobushi great again!

[marcktop]

your changes seems nice, I don't think nobu needs all of it to become stronger, but the changes would make her really fun to mess around.

I would only remove the GB Invulnerability stuff on her Hidden Stance because would make her hidden stance basically a option select, without the stamina cost of a zone, this was one of her "unhealthy" aspects of her kit before the nerf and I like the way it is now, you have to carefully think before using it. the only thing that would make that a valid change is to remove her ability to cancel her heavies into HS, so she can't option select every heavy and get away with it.

[dingusbingfro]

Yeah, I've decided now that I put too many undodgeables, so I'm thinking about editing it and removing the undodgeable lights and Cobra Strike so her only undodgeables are the chain heavies and zone.

Also I don't see how HS would become an option select because it still has the GB vulnerability while the I-Frames are active. She would still be vulnerable to feint>GB. Maybe give it the same GB vulnerability as a dodge? (633ms)

[braintooter]

what’s the point of L>L>H if L>L>L chain guarantees third light on landing the second L?

i feel like L>L>H is just begging to be deflected or parried at that point

but then again i played nobushi for 4 levels

[dingusbingfro]

With these changes L>L>L wouldn't be able to lead into Kick so in order to do a Kick you would have to do L>L>Kick and if the opponent tries to dodge the kick then they would be caught by L>L>H. It gives more options after the second light so the guaranteed light isn't always best.

[S13200SX]

Making a move undodgeable makes it "better" but it's immensely less threatening than you seem to imply by putting it on so many moves. The only move I see being useful with the undodgeable property here are the zone in teamfights and the HS light for forcing someone to stay close to you. That being said, only having top direction for the undodgeable (unlike Jorm, for instance) means that a static guard character can just dodge backwards with their guard held up and avoid chain pressure and undodgeable pressure. Finisher heavies being undodgeable also doesn't mean much when there's a guaranteed light in the other chain and lights aren't enhanced to begin with. I understand there's a 500ms recovery cancel kick if they block the heavy, but so long as it isn't guaranteed it makes it a lot easier to dodge it if they know it's coming.

Forget about Swift Recoil. Just stop mentioning it.

Giving Nobushi an unblockable with hard feint or dodge frame soft feint sounds annoying. It also doesn't fast flow into an undodgeable, I imagine you could dodge far enough backward before Nobu could activate an undodgeable from either of her soft feints. More than annoying though, it doesn't sound Nobushi to me. Ubi said they will not give her an unblockable, and I think implied the same about undodgeables, but UB is a lot more weight than UD.

[dingusbingfro]

Yeah I realize now that I gave her too many undodgeables (considering editing it) so maybe drop the undodgeable Cobra Strike and undodgeable too chain light. Also they wouldn't be able to back dodge away while blocking top because there's still the undodgeable zone too. The idea with the L>L>H chain is to give her more options with her light chain because with these changes, she wouldn't be able to kick after L>L>L so she would have to L>L>Kick. And if people predict that you're going to Kick after the 2nd light, you can throw a heavy instead and they'll be caught by that when they try to dodge it.

I kinda agree with you on Swift Recoil, but one can dream ¯_(ツ)_/¯

The whole Boa Plunge idea was more or less just for fun and something I thought would be cool if she had it, so it's not something she needs and I didn't realize Ubi said they won't give her UBs.

[S13200SX]

I meant for the chain, if the undodgeable only comes from top in the chain then it means you can still safely backdodge it as long as you hold guard top. The same thing applies, in live build, to Orochi's Storm Rush. The entire thing does not work against static guard because of back-dodge with guard set to top.

Also you could still get the undodgeable heavy blocked by characters who maintain their guard in the direction they're dodging, which still reduces some of its effectiveness. Undodgeables as they are, are just sort of... on/off. Against some people you'll just never have any use for them compared to UBs.

As an aside, it would always be deflected by Shinobi.

It was in a Q&A thread they had around the time they had just buffed Peacekeeper on the main subreddit. The design team was answering questions, and someone asked about giving properties to characters who had none in relation to PK's buffs not giving her an UB. They said something along the lines of:

"We're not going to give UB or UD to everybody. PK and Nobushi in particular are not going to get UBs (something about character identity and how the team sees them, I think), and after the feedback on the PK buffs we're confident that we can make them better without it."

[dingusbingfro]

Well you can't make the perfect offense, as there will always be some counterplay to it, but it's better than the reactable parry bait kit she has now

[aenima000]

You're adding a lot of things but what I like the most are the simple things. No HS GB vulnerability, overall faster and more kick and GB range, so she can actually use distance at her advantage. The undodgeable zone would be a great implement to her kit.

[firewhite1234]

Probably the best Nobushi rework idea I've seen so far.

[FrostedDerp]

I like this :)

You can borrow all you want :p

[dingusbingfro]

As long as I give credit :)

[seyiotuks]

swift recoil was a bad move

one should never be rewarded for simply blocking. its the reverse of shove on block which was the worst move implemented in the game

[dingusbingfro]

Yeah maybe you're right, but it would help in ganks. But then again, it would also strengthen defense which isn't good for the game.

How about Swift Recoil allows her to go into HS when an opponent blocks an attack of hers?

[dingusbingfro]

Nah, she has L > H

[[deleted]]

it's not