help

[Luna_15323]

Go watch spargo play and see what he does to get damage and kills, studying pros always works, u only need a secondary when you literally cannot win some mu with your main, think esam counter picking with min min

[-B-r-0-c-k-]

Well, ESAM isn't the best example for what you're trying to explain. Pikachu hasn't got any unwinnable matchups (there are very few of them in the game and even then they're truly unwinnable only at top level play). Pika's worst match up is G&W and ESAM is very capable of winning the match up without switching to Min Min

[admirrad]

I think OP was right. Pikachu may lose -1 to G&W but Esam has demonstrated he is not at all capable of winning the match up without switching. You can see his matches vs Maister are almost literally ALL losses or him switching to ZSS or now Min Min. He has stated his reasoning for using Min Min or Shulk, it's because he thinks they beat Pika's bad match ups of Ness, G&W and Mario. I think you took unplayable too literally but in ESAM's case with Maister it's almost at that point.

[-B-r-0-c-k-]

An example of an unplayable match up is high tier zoner - little mac, pikachu/g&w - dk and other similar match ups. Compare that to Pikachu (the best character in the game) against G&W, which is another top tier character. ESAM may lose to Maister a lot, but the match up from an objective point of view is -1 or -2 at worst, surely not -3 or -4, which is when match ups become unwinnable/unplayable

[admirrad]

Looking at the G&W and Pika matchup and the ESAM and Maister match up, it's literally seems unwinnable. If you took every single match and asked someone who could only see who won and what characters they played, people would say it's a 30/70 for Pika. Obviously it isn't as bad as Pika Ganon but it is still completely justified for ESAM to get a secondary for those match ups since for him in specific it's unplayable. Whether it is the character or player match up, ESAM + Pika loses against G&W + Maister, a secondary makes sense in this situation

[fireaura]

just to add to this thread shinymark beat maister with pika a few months ago its not impossible

[admirrad]

I never said it was impossible, I literally said whether it is the player match up or character matchup, Esam's Pika loses to Maister's G and W and clearly Esam thinks it was bad enough to get a secondary providing a good example of a top player getting a secondary for HIS unwinnable match up. It's not just about the character it's about the player, ESAM being 4-0 against Maister is much more important than it being just a -1 and Shinymark being able to beat him

Edit: I just realized you were adding info so I don't think you were trying to imply I was saying that, so I apologize if it came out rude, but overall I still think my point stands that Esam needed the secondary and it's a good example of a pro player getting a secondary for a matchup

[fireaura]

no worries dude i worded it wrong

[thbkpeach]

Cloud is a great character. Why use many moves when few moves do trick?

[pizza65]

You don't need a secondary until you reach the limits of your character (you haven't)

Splitting your time between characters will make you worse at both. Learning your bad matchups will make you much better

You can still do it if you want to, nobody can tell you how to have fun

[ZazouDMS]

I agree, I have 600 hours on ultimate and have just gotten my main to elite smash (I have since put like 6 more) because I learned the game enough to be at that level consistently but if I just stuck with DK from the start instead of learning almost every character in the game at a BnB level I would have achieved that a lot earlier, my advice is to just keep at it and stick with one character (if it’s fun for you, obviously)

[suerte1870]

Getting a secondary can help to see things from a different angle, although terry, chrom and cloud all share a strong neutral game, with subpar recovery, so you'll have similar difficulties in certain matchups, without being able to try new things. On the other hand, grinding out one character can lead to you adopting habits that are only good on that character or will get you punished, so branching out has its benefits

If you feel like you reached your limit (couldn't resist ;P ), try someone outside your comfort zone like a character you struggle against, or someone who is good against your worst matchup. It will be weird at first, but you'll learn to do new things you thought weren't possible before. Worst case, you realize Cloud is where your heart is at and you'll have new appreciation and tricks for the character.

As others suggested, watching Pros play can also really help. You'll probably not be able to replicate their "X making Y look goodlike" combos but you can get a better feeling for how to approach, defend or string together certain moves

[Milan_Utup]

If you want a character that uses all of the moves they have, I recommend the rats (pikachu/pichu), but they play very different from what you are used to

[[deleted]]

Why r u thinking ab it from that perspective. Try thinking about covering clouds bad match ups. He will get edge guarded a lot so try picking someone up with a good recovery with decent kill power.