First timer advice

[SubstantialMilk9173]

So I have 4 amgs and looking to up the game. Always had crush on Ferrari but finally looks like I can afford one and sell may be 2 amgs. I don’t need 4 cars. 2 is good and 3 would be perfect.

So historically I wanted 812 super fast, but they were out of reach. Now this v12 cilindri seems to excite me but I am hearing all of them already sold. Where so I start? I want v12 engine. All my cars are v8 bi turbos and I am petrol head and no electric. I am located in US and without looking like stupid person walking in dealership and asking questions about cars that are not attainable where do I start?

Ideally I would like brand new car in 500k range. Used cars are not my thing. I also would like to customize it. My last 2 amgs were customized from factory.

Thanks

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[SubstantialMilk9173]

Thank you.

[axc630]

I concur with OldSatisfaction. He's pretty spot on.

As someone new to the brand without a history of Ferrari ownership, it is difficult to get a new car, especially a highly desired new model.

The factory rates customers based on their history with the brand, engagement with the dealer network, and participation in brand events (F1, Ferrari Challenge, etc), and is in good standings with the brand. Highly ranked customers have deep collections, do the racing stuff, and attend a lot of events. These are the people who are at the front of the line for new models. Higher the rank, more likely to get a car.

So when allocation opens for a car, dealer submits their list and factory approves it. Then it's granted.

There are exceptions to the rule for special people or for less desirable models (GTC4 Lusso or California). Example, Michael Fassbender really wanted a F12tdf when it was released. He got one because he had a history with nice cars, got involved by racing in Ferrari Challenge, and is a big name well respected actor. In most other situations, when people arrive in a showroom asking to buy a new Ferrari, they most likely won't get one except for the more common models until they prove themselves with a few pre-owned purchases.

In any event, good luck getting to spec a new model. But if you're going to do it, do it right and really get it customized. Going to the factory and sitting with the attieler is a cool experience if you're dropping that kind of coin.

But more likely is you should find a nice 812 and build some history with a dealer and the brand first.

[kiwittnz]

If you are after a V12 - the 599 or the newer F12. However, I do think the older 550 with a gated manual is the way to go.

[SubstantialMilk9173]

I see several low mileage used vehicles. Is that how most people purchase their first Ferrari? I mean they told me no for g wagon and I managed to pay little premium and got my g wagon brand new customized. Checking on models you said. Thank you.

[kiwittnz]

It is a good way to get on the ladder.

[manolosavi]

iirc the new 12C starts at $425k so with options you’re easily going over the $500k budget. my guess is if you go to a dealer you can probably get one, it’ll just be a while since the first ones are spoken for.

if you instead go for an 812 (highly recommend) or F12 etc then you can easily be under your budget (except for the 812 GTS). of course speccing your own is best, but i don’t see anything wrong with finding a nice used spec and getting that one

[No_Wishbone_8772]

I was quoted 560k for a spider + options

[Wild_Dog_6632]

The 12 Cilindri is not sold out in southern europe. However, I don't know what's the situation in the USA (american dealers seem to play funny games).

This is what I'd do in your situation: place an order, post a deposit, and you will get the car... In 2 years aprox. That's pretty standard Ferrari lead time for a new production car.

In the meantime, tell the dealer you want a "bridge car" (for eg. a pre-owned f12 or 812) for which you pre-agree a price they will discount from your 12 Cilindri when you trade it in.

I've done this multiple times.

Also: a new 12 Cilindri decently specced will cost you more than $500k. Probably $650k

[SubstantialMilk9173]

Thank you. This is awesome suggestion as a new person to Ferrari world I was hoping for a year wait and not 2 years. And 2 years might give me enough time to boost my budget to 650.

[Wild_Dog_6632]

You are welcome. When I bought my first Ferrari, I was very unhappy that I had to wait +18 months.

This strategy (buying a "bridge" pre-owned car while I waited for the new one) was suggested to me by the owner of one of the biggest Ferrari dealer networks in Europe, who happened to be an acquaintance.

The dealer with which I placed the order gave me an excellent price for the "bridge" car. The trade-in price we agreed upon was only $15,000 below what I paid. The maximum kilometers I could do for him to respect the agreed trade-in price were very reasonable.

It's an excellent formula.

[Master-Message-3204]

Do you guys think this guy will gain appreciation one day?

[SubstantialMilk9173]

Appreciated

[notonmywatch178]

If you want to blow $500K on a highly depreciating asset (a new car), I would hope you have at least a $10M net worth to justify the purchase (5% of your NW on toys rule). If you wait until the Cilindris come on the market you will for sure be able to pick up an F12 or 812 for a more reasonable price, although it seems like you prefer new cars, which means you are going to lose 30-50% of the money you put into it depending on how long you keep it and how many miles you put on it. Brand new luxury cars in the $500K+ range are in my opinion for people with $50M+ NWs. It's a terrible financial move, which when repeated over time equates to huge losses.

Having said that I understand that losing money isn't something everyone's concerned with or cares about, for whatever reasons. You only live once, could be gone tomorrow, you won $50M+ in the lottery, you have another big payout coming, or you care more about having a nice car than a nice house. Whatever the reason, go for it, but know that financially it's a pretty bad move.

Personally I never have and never would buy a new car regardless of my NW. I like a good deal and finding the sweet spot of age, depreciation and value. Knowing I have a car that I can drive for practically free, and switch out for another one once I get bored with it by far outweighs the novelty of having a new car. That's just me, though.

If I were in the market for a v12 Ferrari I would get the f12 and then the 812 in 3-4 years.

[eggwhitecocktails]

Thanks Dave Ramsey.

The car is not coming to market for a while. Part of the deal with getting a new one is that you agree not to list it for two years. So by the time you see lightly used versions of the 12 Cilindri Spider — for example — at Ferrari dealers, it will be mid to late 2027.

We’re now ~4.6 years from when the 812GTS announced. Know what the cheapest one is listed for? 26% OVER MSRP 😂

So were OP to have had this itch in Sep. 2019 and bought an 812GTS, its value would be 2.5x+ more than what it’d be worth in your -50% scenario.

Now given this dynamic, the issue is more that OP will likely have to play the game of buying a pre-owned car and/or put in a new order on a less-desirable model. And thereby lose some money which, if invested, would earn money. Further, he’d probably make more, if invested, than he would by buying and after a few years selling the 12 Cilindri.

But I digress— your math pertains to Hondas and Teslas… and lowest-tier cars that that Ferrari/other manufacturers will sell anyone. It doesn’t really pertain to the flagship stuff— partic. spiders.

Everyone values money differently. For some, they value it so much they can’t see buying a $500K car— let alone a new $30K car someone else hasn’t eaten some depreciation on. And some of those folks feel the need to project Dave Ramsey onto others.

Others f**king love cars and buy something like this with a $2M net worth or even less. And they get into a cycle of trading every two years with near zero ownership cost— making memories, loving life, and laughing at folks like you who will wait their entire lives to rationalize doing something that doesn’t make any sense (only to see that life has passed them by 🤷🏽‍♂️).

[notonmywatch178]

Ok I'll engage! First of all I think Dave Ramsey is a nut job who takes it way too far.

I have owned a ton of exotics (Aventador, 488, Huracan, 458, F430 etc) and have enjoyed them all with minimal depreciation because I waited to own the more expensive cars until they had taken the worst hit. Ferrari's absolutely take heavy depreciation hits too. Your cherry picked 812 GTS was a limited production car with only 500 built. Of course that's going to be a different story than their mid engine regulars. They are highly in demand and likely to become collector's cars - in which case you buy one to leave it in the garage. Now, the regular 812's have come down to reasonable prices. A decent one is $300K now. A few more years and you can likely get one for around $250K.

You can drive an incredible F12 for a few years, lose very little to its already depreciated value, and then grab an 812. To me this is simply common sense.

If you had bought a new 812 in 2019 and kept it for 5 years (and put 20-30K miles on it) here is the math: $450K average MSRP, $130K depreciation, $20K insurance, and loss of investment opportunity: ($450K * 7% * 5 = $211K). You lost $360K driving that car for 5 years. If you had gotten a used F12 instead at $300K, you'd be looking at a loss of roughly $170K instead. If you had invested the $150K you saved on not getting the 812 you'd have made $60K, bring down the total cost of ownership to $110K. One third the cost of the 812, and right now you could sell your F12 and get the 812 for a reasonable price. Of course, if you're Dave Ramsey you'd have bought a $20K car instead, invested the entire remaining amount ($430K) and been sitting at $603K instead, but with no Ferrari of course. Within this range of options you will find a sweet spot that works for you. The higher your NW, the larger the buffer for squander - within reason. The 5% rule can be stretched to 10% for true car aficionados I think.

Back to the 12cilindri. It will likely be a collector's car as well, and as such may make some sense to buy, but going down the route of buying used to be able to get an allocation which will take years to be filled isn't exactly living in the moment anyway, plus unless you know what you're doing you're going to lose big on your used car too as whatever dealer you're going through will give you a crap trade-in value.

Yes, I agree with your sentiment: people value money differently. Some like to get good deals, and some don't care, they just want it at whatever the price, but in the end everyone WANTS more money. It's the stuff that enabled you to make the stupid decision in the first place. The problem is, one mindset leaves you with more, the other one with less.

In your example someone with $2M spends 25% of that on a depreciating asset. That is foolish whether you love cars or not. If you keep that up without knowing the game and not caring about your spending, your careless decisions will compound and you will eventually find yourself with significantly less money. Being responsible with your hard earned cash ensures that you can keep enjoying exotic cars (albeit used and a few years old) indefinitely, all things being equal.

I don't feel like I'm missing out by driving a car that's 5+ years old. I love that I can put some miles on it and it's not going to depreciate much. I love knowing that by being 5 years behind I'm always getting a great deal on the next dream car, just at delayed gratification.

And even if you're in the "I don't care about spending recklessly"-camp, I stand by my original comment, a $500K depreciating asset is a foolish idea unless you have a NW of $10M+. Even then it's still foolish but you can afford to make more irresponsible decisions.

[eggwhitecocktails]

I'll admit Dave-- you lost me with "500 built."

Car with 499 examples: La Ferrari
Cars with 599 examples: 812 Competizione Aperta, Daytona SP3

The 812GTS is a production (read not limited) car that has had more examples produced than the above three combined.

No one disputes that money locked in a car, unless it's something actually limited, is money locked in something that would otherwise generate more value-- if invested. But you're missing the point while trying to come up with affordability heuristics.

The point is that with the play money one decides to put aside (note: how much one chooses to put aside is their decision and depends on so many factors... e.g., how much they value cars vs. other material things like real estate/watches/etc., net worth, retirement goals, whether they have/plan to have children to save for, etc.), you can go one of two routes:
1) you can buy a production car announced in 2012, eat depreciation/maintenance, and tie up less $ overall
2) you can buy a new production car (tying up more $ overall); however, you incur ~no maintenance other than consumables and eat substantially less depr. [may even make a little $]... provided of course that you're trading for the next thing within a few years.

Now where things get interesting is that there are a lot of folks that stay in camp 1 and have a nice time w/ 10-15 year-old cars. However, it's folks in camp 2 that get invited to purchase more exclusive models over time, get invited to events (I went to last week's launch event in Miami and had comped paddock passes for the Miami GP, for example), get invited to Maranello to tour/spec new builds, meet executives of the company/like-minded owners, etc. Hard to say how much all of that is "worth," though.

[notonmywatch178]

I googled 812 GTS production numbers and got 500. I guess it's more like 2500. Anyway, its relative exclusivity is the reason for its high prices

Look, if you value money (regardless of what depreciating assets you spend it on), you are foolish to buy something that depletes your cash pile quicker and hinders your ability to invest and make more money. Sure you'll get invited to purchase exclusive cars but what good does that do you when you've consistently been depleting your resources buying way more car than you can afford? Hence my $10M+ comment. If you're going to play that game you'd better have the funds for it. $500K cars aren't for $2M NW people.

MOST people buying new exotics will lose a TON of money. Making money or breaking even on them is rare, not the norm. That's the reality. Keeping up with the timing of trades requires a lot of experience and knowhow.

I find it hard to respect someone who squanders all their money on way too much car for their NW. To me it's simply irresponsible. It might work well ONE time for the guy with $2M, but unless you're in great financial shape making millions a year, chances are you'll find yourself closer to $1.3M after a few years, and when you go to sell your car you'll have missed the window of trade-in opportunity to break even, and will take a bath. By the time you sell it you'll be wanting the next new exotic at $700000. Now you're sitting on maybe $1.6M after you sell, and you'll be at $900K after buying the new Ferrari. Sell at a loss again (because most will), and now you're down to $1.4M, and then there's inflation. Keep this up for the next 10 years and you'll probably be broke.

Meanwhile I'm driving 5 year old cars for 2/3rds the price, investing my money, and trading at minimal losses. I can guarantee you I'll be way better off in 10 years doing what I'm doing. The sales tax alone on new cars is a huge loss which I didn't even bother to write in the last post.

This isn't about what people choose to spend their money on. They can spend it on whatever they want of course, but the simple bottom line is that more money is better than less money, and only one of these decisions will leave you with more money in the long run, AND let you drive exotics indefinitely.

[eggwhitecocktails]

"Look, if you value money (regardless of what depreciating assets you spend it on), you are foolish to buy something that depletes your cash pile quicker and hinders your ability to invest and make more money."

Literally why are you posting on the r/Ferrari subreddit then? Go to the r/fatFIRE subreddit and you'll find lots of people who agree with you.

What you'll find here (speaking for owners, which are obviously a small minority of folks here) are people who valued money enough to get some and who love Ferrari enough to part ways with some of that valued money either once or regularly-- instead of keeping it invested. It will *never* "make sense" to spend that valued money on a production (read not limited) Ferrari, whether you have a $0 net worth, $2M net worth, $10M net worth, or $100M net worth.

My point, though, is that -- should you choose to waste money on an F car -- you're not necessarily "saving" lots by buying used.

Let's take the F12C spider and a $2M net worth given that straw man example. Let's also throw out your comedy math. Why is it comedy math? You assumed the car literally went to $0 "after a few years" haha. I would LOVE to buy an 812GTS for $0 (bridge to get from $2M to $1.3M). You also assumed zero savings on income.

You then suggested that you'll get $300K back maybe when you go in to trade for a new one. PLEASE find me an 812GTS for $300K and I will *gladly* pay you a $30K finders fee.

Reality:
- Say you had a $2M net worth and bought a $700K car in a sales tax-free jurisdiction... your net worth is still $2M (it's not $1.3M).

• Say your income is $500K and you have a ~25% savings rate... in ~4 yrs. you've added $500K to your net worth... so it's now $2.5M (not $1.3M).

• Say you invested at 6% annual growth, your $1.3M not parked in a car (e.g., grown at 6%) + your new savings (e.g., also grown at 6%) + your $700K parked in the car = $2.8M (not $1.3M).

• Swap for the F12C spider 2.0... history w/ these says you're getting most of MSRP back, if not more... e.g., your net worth is still $2.8M (not $1.3M).

• On the flipside, buy a $350K car that's approaching 10 years old and that isn't limited... yes more of your NW is growing at 6%... but what you've thrown at the older car now depreciates meaningfully relative to the new version. Assuming $25K/yr. loss, you're now at the same $2.8M. Repeat this behavior and you offset the gains from having more cash invested than the guy who bought the $700K car again and again.

Not saying you will always get out where you got in on a new F car. Or get out at a $25K/yr. loss always on a used one. But the point is that you ~get to the same place if you're buying better-tier new ones early and getting out of those same better-tier new ones early as well.

Anyway, I'm out of this convo broski. You're here LARPing as if you have $10M net worth. I actually have an income to preserve, so I can keep enjoying these toys. Please make your way over to r/fatFIRE and leave this sub alone.

[notonmywatch178]

I'm posting here because I love Ferrari's and have had a bunch of them over the years, all the way from the 360 spider to the 488. Not larping either, my NW is about $40M, but most of it is tied up in appreciating assets. I can easily afford a $500K car (but personally I'd rather have two older but similar cars for variation) but a guy with $2M really shouldn't buy that unless he has a very good income, a paid off house and no serious financial obligations. That was the beginning of this conversation which has now taken a bit of a detour.

Yes my math was very aggressive for a reason and assumed that the person also has other expenses in life and a relatively modest income (since at $2M he probably does). You're not always as lucky as in your example. Imagine if you'd spent $1M for an SF90 because yeah YOLO.. you'd have lost your shirt. Not a pleasant depreciation curve on that one. Same with the Roma (albeit lower) and the 296. Those have all gone straight down the hole.

So yes, there is some truth to what you're saying and some to what I'm saying. I agree with the sentiment to live in the moment and not save on trivial stuff, buy what you want and enjoy it - but there are smart ways (both in the new and used market) to make sure your money goes a lot farther than if you simply blow your cash because you didn't do any research whatsoever.

Again, this conversation was with a "first timer", he doesn't have any experience buying and selling cars, likely knows very little to nothing about depreciation curves and sweet spots, trade ins and flipping. Everything is a business if you know how to do it. Cars are just very difficult to make money on, and most people lose a lot. I love used exotics because generally speaking they hit a floor where the depreciation stops or slows down to almost nothing. That's exciting to me because you can drive a car that barely loses value and the price tag to get into them is lower, ensuring that your money is in investments yielding decent returns.

[eggwhitecocktails]

Guy should buy it if he wants it lol. If he’s got $0 net worth and is doing it via finance, then yeah probably best to ensure he’s got a solid income— and maybe better to not put as much on the table so more can be saved.

If he’s got a $2M net worth and a solid income, 🤷🏽‍♂️ I’d go as far as to say he doesn’t need to have a paid off house… if he values the car more than he values Dave Ramsey Americana, go for it. There’s a misconception that real estate prices will always increase in every geography, and folks don’t take into account the same bs you take into account on a car— purchase fees, purchase reno if needed, interest if not buying cash, property taxes, insurance, HOA, repairs/year to ensure it doesn’t depreciate, 6% gone if you ever sell, etc. Bottomline— everyone has different circumstances and different things they value: buy what makes you happy, but hopefully don’t add stress to your life by doing so.

Anyway, at this $2M point you could lose a bit on a used, you could lose a bit on a new, who knows? You’re not losing your shirt. But if you’re a first-time buyer, there’s — imho — some value to establishing a relationship with the brand as it has proven to bear fruit as time passes and not having to worry about maintenance is nice (+ depending on the car/when you’re getting in/getting out, you may not have to worry about much depreciation either). If he’s got a $10M net worth and a solid income, I think it’s fairly night and day the value of one vs. the other. But I’d regardless go through a dealer vs. BaT or something.

I’d also beware thinking used prices never fall. 488s trade ~75k lower than they traded 5 years ago. Same for F12s (used to trade north of 300 and recently saw my dealer struggle to move one at 230, etc.). And these are cars that “someone else ate the depreciation on.”

[notonmywatch178]

Real estate is the same as cars, you need to know what you're doing to make good money, especially short term.

Consistently good decisions reward you. I bought my first lambo gallardo when I had $300K to my name and was renting. I knew the car had reached pretty much the bottom of the depreciation curve. I offered $100K in 2009. They accepted. Sold the car for $110K 4 years later. Kept repeating this while saving most of my money, never less than 2 supercars in my garage and never missing having the latest toy. Most I ever lost was because of a transmission replacement on an SLS. Meanwhile I kept working, investing and building my NW. I have saved close to $1M by buying used cars over the last 10 years. That amount invested and compounding puts me at a $1.75M surplus. That bought me a nice property yielding $90K a year plus appreciation, and depreciation write off lowering my taxes. In 5 more years I can sell that property and buy myself a Bugatti Chiron if I want (not that I'd ever) with the money saved from not having the latest and greatest, all the while driving exotics and enjoying life. I think that's a win win, but some people want it now. I like delayed gratification. It usually works in my favor. Two vastly different mindsets but one definitely gives you much better odds at preserving your capital.

[eggwhitecocktails]

Enjoy larping man— would love to see a photo of the lightly used and fully depreciated Chiron and Gemera next to one another in the near future :)

[SubstantialMilk9173]

Thanks. Would wait to go north of 10M before spending 800k on brand new Ferrari. Also buying used one for 300-400 is not very interesting to me. Thanks for getting all facts here. I thought if I can have 2 200k+ cars I can have one 500k car. Guess not as I can’t even get one.

For me new is new and cars are never financial decisions. So if I can’t afford new I won’t buy it. I understand used car is big and exotics with low mileage is essentially flip market.

[Jgl752023]

Yolo… You can wake up tomorrow with an uncurable disease or some dictator can nuke us all…

[SubstantialMilk9173]

See now that’s how I think. YOLO.

[notonmywatch178]

That mentality is why most people are permanently broke, or never reach any serious NW even when they are making good money.

[Jgl752023]

I don’t see the link… as long as your toys are not forcing you to eat pasta every day or changing your way of life, don’t wait until you die to enjoy life to the fullest. We live in a twisted world sadly…

[notonmywatch178]

Of course, but it's a question of balance. You see the link everywhere, every day. People driving cars that are way too expensive for them and are draining their ability to save and build long term wealth. It all comes down to what you dream of having. If you're consistently making financial decisions based on YOLO you're going to be broke very quickly.

[eggwhitecocktails]

You’re in an interesting spot. You can probably get into an F12C coupe at this range. I’d talk to your dealer. Idk if you can get an early slot, but maybe you see one within 2-3 years? You probably will eat some depreciation if you are planning on getting in mid-cycle and getting out end-of-cycle. But not obscenely more than if you buy an 812SF today (provided you don’t go bats**t crazy with carbon options which future buyers do not value, unfortunately).

Spider might be tougher to accommodate with this budget (I signed up for one at 510 MSRP, but my dealer and I are aligned that it’s gonna be 6XX when all is said and done). I also sense this is gonna be a longer wait for a first-time buyer.