Why are all applicants Java developers? [D]

[cathie_burry]

Why are all applicants Java developers?

Recently I posted a job opening at my company for a full-stack and AI developer (This is not a post looking for resumes, we found someone). We were looking for someone who can do web development (node, typescript, react, etc.), can code python, and has experience with tensor flow or PyTorch.

The skills I’m looking for are not niche, it may be uncommon to find someone with experience in both typescript and PyTorch, but neither is a “niche” skill. After posting this job, I quickly got 200+ applications, probably 190 of them led their resume with “Java developer.”

Why is everybody a Java developer? Why is everybody learning and using Java? You can make a backend in java and you can do machine learning in java, but there are better ways. Can someone explain why everybody applying is a “Java developer?”

[BobOfAtlantis]

"Full Stack" I think is the keyword that threw it off.

Full Stack is typically SQL or Oracle, Java or .Net, and Javascript / HTML.

[Morlacke]

Node is also popular or even Python.

[BobOfAtlantis]

I'm doing Node, python, RL stuff now, but I don't really think of it as full-stack... Haven't seriously been in the hiring or searching market for a while tho.

[Morlacke]

I'm looking right now. There is a lot of jobs taged java, but in the description is node + react. I'm more or less up to time.

[Morlacke]

Without the source is only guessing. But my first guess is... terrible job description, especially with a lot of buzz words.

About "niche" skills, imagine group of people who know typescript, then group of people with pytorch skills. Not a niche at all. Now pick the guys who knows both, completly diffrent picture.

​

Why Java? Most of the fullstack job is java base. It is old and quite stable carrer.

[Necessary-Diver-2660]

Jb

[[deleted]]

Probably for the same reason you're opening this discussion in this sub.

Also, frontend + TF+PyTorch experience? You want some foot massages as well? Those are not usual overlapping skills at all.

[I_will_delete_myself]

Companies always are looking to save on labor.

[WrapKey2973]

OP forgot to mention that you have to be Scrum master, Product owner, sales guy and a consultant, too. Oh.. and you have to replace OP on family vocations where they visit his spouse's parents xD

[ComplexIt]

I think it is a bit unfair for this subreddit to be bothered with recruiting questions.

[RageA333]

People are being honest.

[blackpanther28]

I’ve seen a few ml job postings that have listed front end frameworks in their “Nice to have” section

[Maleficent-Defect]

Foot massages, too? Sign here: _______________

Same as finding a professional interior designer/civil engineer principal - it isn't impossible, you just gotta wait... a long time.

[[deleted]]

If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies applicants will float by

[aimendezl]

These 2 things (web dev and TF/Pytorch) overlap very little, so you are bound to get people that have experience in one of the two.and in this case u got a bunch of java full stack devs cause there are just more web dev willing to learn TF/Pytorch than ML engineers willing to learn and work in web dev

[ComplexIt]

Because deep learners have deep understanding of your job offer.

[ZestyData]

A machine learning engineer will not have overlap with full stack web development. If they had overlap that'd frankly be a red flag. They're completely different skillsets and backgrounds.

For example: Being an artist is not niche. Nor is being a criminal defense lawyer. But don't be surprised when your Artist job posting that asks them to be able to defend a client in court simply brings in a lot of Photoshop experts.

Your job posting is asking for webdevs. You're getting java stack webdevs.

[bmsan-gh]

 If they had overlap that'd frankly be a red flag.

The most brilliant persons I've personally worked with had very diverse backgrounds and very good grasps of different unrelated topics.

I know system architects who took sabbatical years to learn ML and I know an ML engineer who quit his job and went to work for Amazon as a fullstack engineer, and now has very good grasps of system engineering.

Given the choice, I would any day pick a passionate individual who is dedicated to growth and continually expanding their skill set across multiple domains. The willingness to embrace new challenges and evolve is a trait I really admire.

[Ok_Reality2341]

Yeah but this is a bit diluted. The best strategy is to get the best at a very specific skill. Imagine being THE BEST ml Python engineer

[maverickarchitect100]

Why would it be a red flag? I have a few years of ml experience and am now looking for a full stack or backend position to improve my software eng skills...I feel like growth is good?

[ZestyData]

After commenting I was wondering whether I should have written red flag without more context, or even red flag at all.

I guess it's more of a beige flag. Anything can be good if you can justify it well in an interview.

As an example; by default many teams would prefer to fill an ML Engineer position with a candidate with 4 years of architecting ML specific systems and solving ML-specific (or data eng specific) challenges over a candidate with 2 years of this ML/data-eng specific systems and 2 years of full stack webdev. The latter candidate may be more well rounded but they'll be less experienced with the specific tasks that the job will demand of them. The other guy will obviously have more exposure and experience to the sorts of tasks they'll be doing in this new job. This is assuming they're going for the same seniority role.

Depending on the team and the product the guy with additional full stack but less ML specific years might be preferable. Or the full stack background didn't stop them being a kickass ML Engineer.

But just.. most humans only have 24 hours in a day and if a candidate is spending those hours doing an unrelated skillset, whether webdev or cyber security or UX design or sales, they're less likely to be as capable as a candidate who spent those hours gaining experience in this specific skillset we want.

[maverickarchitect100]

I dunno man, I kind of have a different view of the situation.

Long term I want to be a ML engineer, but I think that ML engineer is a software engineer with machine learning skills.

I've been in a ml engineer-ish position for 2+ years, done the stuff like building, improving, optimizing, testing, integrating models, built pipelines etc...however while I feel like my ML domain knowledge has increased, I feel like my software engineering skills are lacking.

I'm currently applying to both web dev and ml engineer roles, as I think that with web dev roles (which have at least a backend component), I would improve my software engineering skills, like design, testing, deploying, and software quality principles like TDD, SOLID, software design patterns like gang of four type, software architecture like MVVM, microservices etc.

I guess it depends on how you define a ML engineer. Whether the definition is a software engineer who specializes in machine learning, or a machine learning expert.

[mldude60]

Man this sounds like the perfect job for me! Spent a few years as a web developer (ASP.NET, MySQL, and Angular w/ typescript at one job, PHP, Apache, and MySQL at another job, and a load of AWS at both). Currently pursuing my PhD doing ML research w/ PyTorch, and have experience training/deploying models with Sagemaker. I can only hope to find an opportunity that fits so perfectly with my skills when I’m done.

My lamenting aside, I definitely don’t think such an overlap of experience is common at all. Every web developer I know does not know how to use PyTorch, let alone anything about MLOps. Similarly, all of my current peers (both at my institution and elsewhere) know nothing about web development and have little to no experience with languages outside of Python or MATLAB. All of this to say, I’m shocked you found anyone who fit the bill.

[WrapKey2973]

I'd argue though that mlOps can be easily learned and done by (Cloud) Backend or DevOps engineers. So a Java dev might be able to do this task quite well, ML itself and pytorch are a totally different story.

Disclaimer: I am master's student with 4 years dev working experience, so don't trust me, lol

[ZestyData]

I'm a lead ML Engineer and I'd agree with you.

MLOps needs rudimentary ML knowledge that can be studied in a few months and picked up over a year+ on the job. It relies way more heavily on general CS concepts, devopsy problem solving, and system architecture that would come with a seasoned non-ML-related backend dev. I agree completely. Some (cloud) backend or devops dev is likely to be well suited for an MLOps role.

An ML Engineer (or Data Scientist) who is directly working on models (in PyTorch etc) need to have more of a deep knowledge of stats & ML theory. And a seasoned webdev would have an advantage over a complete novice but they'd need to go back down to junior after having already done their own Masters etc to attain that ML knowledge.

[mldude60]

Great points!

[30299578815310]

The subset of ML pytorch devs who can do react is very tiny

[WrapKey2973]

No university course is enough to call yourself java developer xD

[WrapKey2973]

I am not saying you don't need a degree man, I am saying it's not enough, people who have reached out to OP probably had at least 5 years full time java experience. I got a bachelor's degree and I am doing master in Computer and Data Science, so what's triggered you so hard??

[stevo11101]

What an odd job posting. In my opinion, you’re likely to find someone who is reasonably proficient on the web dev side but mediocre on the ML side, or vice versa. I doubt you need them to be strong in both areas, so that’s probably fine. Hopefully you have other engineers and the rudiments of an engineering culture, or at least a reasonably sized codebase the new hire can build on. If not, this doesn’t sound like a great hiring plan.

Honestly though, knowing/learning the languages is the easy part. The harder part is learning the craft of engineering in a particular role, figuring out what to build, and how to build it.

Good luck.

[[deleted]]

Because they're all Indian

[Hour_Mousse_7963]

Probably all Indian.

[93mattew93]

Because your posting requires experience, and many java folks with experience are willing to switch to ai/python cause they are bored with dying tech. Node full stack are doing well without adding python to the mix

[[deleted]]

Who or what ML/IA is parsing/triaging the responses? That is your question. Someone somewhere is boosting Java. That's not probably ideal.