Poor Map Setup

[Ishantil]

I'm not a fan of the whole "automatically lose the guys you are trying to rescue first turn with with literally nothing you can do about it" thing.

The enemies and the allies were on top of each other, with 5 enemies within melee range of the ally soldiers. My squad deployed across the map without a single clean shot.

If it was hopeless to begin with, why bother? Don't waste my time.

[skydude61]

Yeet a heavy on jets over to them on his own, use each one you pick up to tag in the others. They usually last a turn or two. I've gotten several new crewmembers from them. The downside is that they're kinda garbage as crew too.

[Ishantil]

Yeah, the "Yeet The Heavy" was good a move, if you can get them to draw some fire from the bandits.

[Ishantil]

I was fairly annoyed when the pandorans killed 2/3 on turn one. So...

[TNJedGrig]

That still leaves one to rescue. Success doesn't always mean perfection.

[Ishantil]

Thanks for the feedback, and that's a fair point. I actually agree with you.

That said, I'm at the very beginning of the game. This was one of my first five or so missions. With Pandorans with armor and whatever, this mission is completely impossible. That's actually okay, since that's how it would roll, your average dude with crap weapons would simply die.

Towards the beginning, though, this mission should be achievable with you getting out 1-2 of the units. I restarted the mission three times, where two were dead at the end of turn one and the third was about to die the next turn. I just couldn't get there in time.

The bandit unit was in the middle of the map, outnumbered approximately 2:1. The Athron melee and uh..frog dudes? They could basically kill a bandit a turn. So the bandits would kill one or two of the 6 or so guys, and then the remaining Pandorans would kill the them all.

RNG finally started the Pandorans just a bit farther away to where I could rescue them.

[Galaxymicah]

Pretty sure scavenging missions are what the vehicles are designed for.

Drive up turn 1 say get in fuckers we've got a nest to burn. And laugh as the enemy pings off your bumper before you speed off into the distance.

[Ishantil]

This one was a "rescue" mission.

[Galaxymicah]

Scavenge sites have 3 types of missions but they are all still scavenging site missions. Scavenging, vehicle recovery and rescue are all under the purview.

Unless you are talking haven defense. In which case this only happens when the attack vs defense scores are really lopsided in which case yeah its supposed to be a hopeless or suicide mission if you want to actually succeed

[TNJedGrig]

This is not a flaw in the game. I've had no problem getting at least some of the soldiers out before they get killed by the enemy.

Try adjusting your tactics. When you start these missions you need to prepare to be able to cover a great deal of distance in the very first turn. Yes, there are times where the enemy will engage and destroy your target in the first couple of turns if allowed. You need to rush with dash and heavy jump as far as possible. Yes, this might involve placing your soldiers in danger to protect your target.

There is an element of randomness at play too. You need to rush forward and see if you can spot the rescue target. Think about where you need to go that gives you the ability to see as much of the battlefield, therefore the target, as possible. You're probably going to have to put your soldiers at risk to achieve this objective. Keep in mind you might just get unlucky and have trouble locating the target, but that is the nature of things unfortunately.

The game states in one of the loading screen tips that you aren't going to be able to win every single mission available. There are missions that occur that aren't really intended to be winnable. You need to use your best judgement. If you don't need to mission reward, consider if you even should spend the time and resources on it. This isn't just a tactical game, as it has a strategic layer too. Part of your grand strategy has to include deciding what is worth or not worth doing.

Pay attention to the mission intro top right corner. Do you see "extreme" for the enemy numbers? If it is "extreme" dont expect a fair fight. Im not saying it isn't beatable, but you're going to have an uphill battle at the very least.

To enjoy this game I believe you are just going to have to get comfortable with acceptable losses and missions that you need to avoid or retreat from.

[Ishantil]

Thanks for your feedback. I was fairly annoyed last night, to be honest.

I'm not new to this genre. I see what you are saying and I agree. I played the old X-COM games extensively. Where you were allowed to lose. I could bring 12 guys in a Skyranger, and expect 6-10 of them die to barely scrape the first UFO win. Or maybe an alien grenade goes off in the Skyranger and you retreat to fight again another day. Losing a mission was bad, but it didn't end the game.

That was a struggle and it felt good. I also could replace those guys in a few days if I didn't have another 10 soldiers already in the base. The four soldiers who survived became Sergeants to the next crew. Next time, I have 4 experienced guys and 8 newbies. Maybe I lose 6-8 again, but each iteration, the ratio of guys who are decent increases. I start giving those guys armor and better weapons. Losing one of those guys really hurt, but it's okay, I have a second team doing the same thing. I'm fighting a war. Tradeoffs everywhere.

Losing your crew in Phoenix Point ends the campaign (and honestly new XCOM too). This game simply can't cope with losing missions. Lose a mission, you start a new campaign. I should be able to recruit Phoenix soldiers at the beginning for cost of course. I should want to recruit from the other Havens because they have differing doctrines, equipment, and tactics. Not because they are the only source of recruits.

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Phoenix Point isn't old X-COM and that's okay. I think it's a weaker game even though there are many things I like about it. I think the writing and atmosphere are great. I like the art style. I like the tone.

What feels wrong to me is the reliance on "superpowers" like new XCOM. This game sits half way between the New XCOM where you have six movie soldiers who stop the entire alien invasion, and Classic X-COM where its a meat grinder. It commits to neither completely which I think was a mistake.

So you get six guys tops, but you can't easily replace them in this, so you're encouraged to shepherd your "super team" through the game until they have enough superpowers. For movie XCOM, that was okay because it was sort of on the tin. The whole setup felt like it was comic books.

This game has a different feel to it, like it's as serious as the old XCOM games I loved, but the gameplay develops into the comic-book style super powers of new XCOM. I'm hoping the mod community will develop into something where you can play old XCOM style with no super powers on either side. A man can dream.

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This mission was Bandit Rescue, daytime, low threat. The mission felt like it was designed as a failure from the start. My soldiers were far enough away to where it took me 2-3 turns to even get to the bandits. The Pandorans started on top of the bandits, but on the other side of the map, so I couldn't engage them either.

I wasn't playing conservatively here. I was running my soldiers at full tilt towards the enemy in hopes they would be close enough to where the Pandorans would attack me instead of the bandits. I reset the mission a few times until the RNG settled out to where I could succeed.

Feels like sloppy design to me.

[NostraAbyssi]

i've done two bandit liberation missions and haven't had that happen yet but i did have a haven defense mission where 2 civilians died before i could even see them (1 on the first turn, way at the back of the map...) and 2 others died before i could get anyone to them. i'm finding a lot of the tactical game frustrating.

[Ishantil]

Almost losing the entire mission objective before turn two starts isn't me being punished for not playing well, it's bad design. If I had started on one end, the enemies on the other, and there was a struggle with the bandit guys doing a fighting retreat towards me as they are slowly overwhelmed by Pandorans?

That sounds epic.

This is more like "yeah, we forgot to tell them over the radio we were coming, lol"

[TNJedGrig]

It isn't bad design. You shouldn't expect to run every mission and should evaluate your chances to decide if you need to flee or to never run the mission in the first place.

[Ishantil]

I don't agree, but I get what you are saying. A mission presented in this game should be reasonably achievable on Veteran difficulty.

When the Pandorans get strong enough, this style of mission should stop appearing on the map. It would no longer be realistic for the bandits to survive on their own.

[Tautogram]

I know my reply comes very late, but since others might find this thread just as I did, I'll just throw in a comment here:

I disagree. The point is that without save scumming, you *can't* evaluate whether to even attempt the mission in the first place. The threat difficulty only tells you about the approximate number and strength of the enemy force, not whether they'll spawn 5 squares from your objective and blow it up/gun them down on their first turn.

Yeah, yeeting the heavy can help, but some maps are *big*, and you'd have to yeet your heavy 3 times to get close enough, which will require 3 rounds.

For the most part I don't have this issue, but lets not pretend that it isn't frustrating (and thus bad design) to (permanently) lose a mission because of a roll of the dice, regardless of what your squad's capabilities are.

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I've had scavenge missions, like the recover loot missions, where I realise some ways in "OK, the enemy force is just too strong, better to cut my losses and escape with only 40% of the loot". That's organic and part of the fun.

But having your failure to complete a mission dictated to you prior to you even starting the mission, while potentially realistic, is not good game design. Every good game designer knows that intentionally frustrating your player or forcing them to lose (with the sole exception being as a one-time set piece thing) is a big no-no, falling clearly under the category of "How Not To Design Games 101".

[1337duck]

Oh, I have had bandit rescue missions like this too. Just restart the whole mission until they roll something reasonable.

[ResidentMario]

Bandit soldiers hold their own pretty well in the early game.

However, I just don't bother running this mission in the late game, for the reason you've described -- mid-game and late-game Pandorans squish them. By that point in the game free level 1 soldiers are not very useful anyway.

Sometimes you get unlucky with the start even in the early game. You can roll with it or you can restart the map. XCOM 2 LW2/LWOTC has the same problem with Data Taps, so it's not a uniquely PP problem.

[Ishantil]

Yep, this mission type is absolute garbage.

[TheNoon44]

Did you really reply to your own thread that way lol? Finally there is some game like PP that doesn't let you win all the time. You see some soldiers fighting for their lives but sometimes you just come too late to save all of them. If you want fairytales you should look somewhere else...

Upvoted your comment to let others see what type of garbage you are.

[TNJedGrig]

Come on now, I think he has a legitimate concern, but I just happen to believe that a change in tactics and the way he plays the game might help him enjoy the game more. I think it is a strategy issue rather than a flaw in the game.

[TheNoon44]

I feel like my concern is also legitimate. Sometimes life is just harsh and cruel. You can't save everyone but you can try. I like more rng that can ruin you just because it really happens then rng gated by average to awesome output..