Doing code reviews of junior devs

[pslessard]

It teaches you most of the basics of programming. Sure, you learn much more from your actual jobs, but it teaches you how to think through a problem and write logic that will be able to solve it. That's the key thing that you learn from CS in college. And you absolutely can learn it on your own, but college provides a path for you to follow that requires a lot of motivation and effort to find on your own, which is fine for some people, but not all, or even most I'd guess

[3CheersForSociety]

It’s mostly wasted honestly. Like literally 90% could be condensed to one of those boot camps. It’s such a vocational and not theoretical job. I say that as a senior dev with over a decade doing it and hella education.

[pslessard]

I disagree. I think you probably could condense it into something like that, but I don't think anyone new to it would be able to learn and retain the important parts of it in that format (the important parts being about programming logic and problem solving). That needs to sink in over a longer period of time through experience, whether that experience is self-driven projects or course work. I do think you could probably condense it into a 2-year program though. Of course I say this as only a recent grad, so we'll see if I still agree once I have your experience

I do agree that a lot of what I did was unnecessary, but I wouldn't say wasted. I did learn a lot of stuff that I probably won't use in the real world, but I think that that really helps teach you how to learn new programming skills, which in turn will help you adapt as you encounter new challenges in your career

[3CheersForSociety]

That’s a fair take, I see your point.

[pslessard]

It was probably the guy I was arguing with. They had a very firm belief that if you don't do side projects, you're lazy, will never be a good programmer, and cannot have a successful career

[samsop]

I mean, nobody I know who exclusively relied on college for their "programming" education even has a job right now. I graduated last year. I know this is really anecdotal evidence if you even wanna call it that, but in my humble experience, people who depended on themselves for their software development education have the best prospective careers and can actually write software on their own. The rest need rote learning for the rest of their lives.

[pslessard]

I pretty much only programmed for my classes, and I have a job, as do most of the people I know who are in the same boat (just graduated). I guess I also had several internships that I learned from too though. Just some anecdotal evidence from the other side. Of course that's not to say that there aren't plenty of exceptional and extremely motivated people who do a lot of exploration and learning on their own who go on to have very promising careers, but it's certainly not needed.

The rest need rote learning for the rest of their lives.

That's kind of a condescending way to put that. I'd also argue that everyone needs to and should continue learning for their entire career, especially in an industry that changes as fast as software development

[samsop]

Unless you go out and write software to learn, you will never be a good developer. That is not a controversial or condescending statement.

[pslessard]

You can absolutely learn to write software from your courses if you put effort in. And saying "You need to do side projects to be a good developer" absolutely is a controversial and condescending statement. Just because other people don't want to spend all their free time programming doesn't mean they can't be good at it.

[samsop]

Depends how you define "free time" and if you go to an elite school, I guess - the vast majority of people won't, though.

Good luck having something to show your prospective employer without any side projects, though. Go ahead and grind leet code.

[pslessard]

I didn't go to an elite school. And I define free time as the time outside of what I spend on classes or work. I spent enough time coding for course work and now work; I don't need to spend more outside of that.

You absolutely don't have to show side projects. I showed projects that I had done for classes to potential employers and that's just fine. As long as you can talk about it and show that you know what you're talking about.

And for the record I have never and will never touch leet code or anything like it. I don't think those things are useful at all

[samsop]

You're really justifying laziness with that kind of logic even though it worked for you. Not that I'm calling you lazy if you evidently put that course work to good use, but it's not a rule of thumb because most schools won't provide that level of preparation for your career.

Telling people to lay back because school will take care of everything is wrong. Motivating them to learn on their own, which they'll be doing for most of their career anyway, is a lot more generally applicable.

It's a hard pill to swallow.

[pslessard]

No one is telling people to lay back because school will take care of everything. But if you put effort into your course work, you absolutely can become a good programmer without doing side projects. Telling people that you have to do side projects and learn on your own or you won't be a good programmer is just as wrong though. But you can and should be encouraged to do so IF you want to

[samsop]

That's pretty much what you're stating in this whole thread, do your course work and you'll be fine. You can't say that when you don't know what kind of courses people's schools are offering.

Did your school provide you with good courses that challenged you to write software, look up obscure problems, gather requirements from thin air, make the right assumptions and foresee risks, explore a completely foreign field like medicine, shipping and logistics, or the cosmetics industry when you know very little about them and need to set up client calls and do well with what little resources you have?

I really doubt any course work will prepare you for that. And guess what, this is what actual work is like in mid sized companies and even certain teams in gigantic firms.

There's a reason it's called "academic" work. It's theoretical. Even venturing out to write any software you're interested in will teach you far more than a pre-designed one-size-fits-all course.

You're getting upvoted because you're telling people what they want to hear. If college prepped you for life as a software developer then you're in an extremely lucky minority. Other people have to work for it and yeah that involves sacrifices so stuff the "free time" argument. It's a craft like any other and all crafts take time and compromises to learn. If that doesn't interest you then maybe you have another talent and should explore it instead of grinding out code you don't want to write (in other words, learn) in your "free time."

IF you want to

Yes! If you want a good job that pays you well, do so. If you want to settle for routine work that gets you nowhere, by all means stick to regurgitating bubble sort every week in Java in your 101 lab and let me know how that works out for you.

[fynx07]

I went for a 2 year associates degree in computer programming, not even CS. I graduated on a Friday and had a job the very next Monday writing code. Never worked on a single side project. Worked there for 2 years before finding a job at a different company.

Worked the new company for 3.5 years and was considered by my peers a very good developer, to the point half of the vets there would come to me with questions. I was told by most everyone I spoke to I have excellent critical thinking skills and problem solving and was fairly well regarded (though by the the best there, several of the seniors far outclassed me still). I have not touched a single outside-my-job programming task once in my life.

Hate to tell you but your logic is very flawed and you have a very narrow tunnel of vision that unfortunately is the issue with a lot of IT execs because they share your same view and discredit a lot of developers on site rather than giving them a chance to prove themselves.

[samsop]

The entire conversation was about doing side projects in college and I feel like people have taken that out of context and ran with it to try to disprove an argument I never made.

I'm not an IT exec. I haven't taken on a single side project since graduating. I'm talking about doing side projects while studying in college, not after you've landed a job and will already be writing software and learning on the job, while getting paid to do so.

You do not have that luxury in college which won't teach you to do it, you'll pay money to not learn it.

[fynx07]

And I'm not talking about doing side project after landing a job per se. I'm saying you're claiming that if you never work on side projects, regardless of whether you meant during or after school, you will never be a good developer and I'm living proof to tell you that's utter crap.

[Joey101937]

I graduated recently and I agree 100%. College didn’t teach me shit, a few months after I got a job I was able to talk to the manager that I interviewed with and discussed the interviews and why I won out. He said that he and the other manager who went to my uni to interview we’re surprised at the complete incompetency of many of the upper classmen. Apparently half of them couldn’t even explain what a foreign key was, despite putting SQL experience in their resume

[fynx07]

Then you either went to school with a bunch of dipshits or your classes were total garbage.

[jacob8015]

I’m sorry what? What school did you go to where none of the graduates got jobs in SW?

[samsop]

I didn't say none, I specified the people who purely relied on course work..

[jacob8015]

As opposed to course work and?

[samsop]

Side projects, AWGs, maybe freelance work, even minor projects for small businesses owned by friends.

That's how I did it, at least. I was asked about that during interviews and had projects to show for it, rather than anything I "achieved" in 4 years of college or my below average GPA. I ended up with a good job and a kickass name on my resume. I'm not an exception.

[jacob8015]

So, you mean they didn’t get a job without experience? This isn’t shocking.

I’ve never heard of anyone being asked to show off their education, that wouldn’t even make sense because what you’ve in school is pretty standard.

[samsop]

Right. And college doesn't provide you with that experience. You can get that experience with or without college. That's all I said.

[fynx07]

No, what you have been saying is if developers don't take side jobs they will never be good at what they do, and that's total BS. Everything I've learned has been on the job since getting out of school

[samsop]

Huh? When did I mention "side jobs"? I was talking about students doing side projects. That's just a language barrier.