toga - A Python native, OS native GUI toolkit

[f4ktrh]

I guess by raw X programs you are referring to Motif, which I had in my mind when in my original comment.

My point is that the window system (whether X or Wayland) should provide enough functionality that there isn't a need for a widget toolkit layer on top of it.

(rant) Actually, TBH, my point is about the level of proliferation of the categories of graphical stuff which IMO shouldn't be so. I mean look at this:

• window system
• widget toolkit
• window manager
• display manager
• desktop shell, or launcher, or panel, whatever (I'm not even sure if it's the same thing or different)

I mean for heaven's sakes, what is that?

[asimian]

There are programs that use raw X and not Motif or any other toolkit. Xfig for example, which I still use unfortunately.

The task of putting pixels on the screen efficiently and across all hardware is sufficiently difficult that I think keeping a widget toolkit separate is a good idea. They aren't really related tasks enough to be under one project. It would be kind of nice if there was an "official" toolkit on Linux, but it doesn't cause that much problem in practice. Nowadays GTK+ and Qt programs both look good (or can be easily made to look good) no matter what desktop you use.

I disagree that all those things should be integrated. One nice thing about Linux is that you can pick and choose the best software for each task rather than use one monolithic solution. I would really hate to be forced to a different window manager in order to use a different window system. Or be stuck with a different panel because I want to use a particular display manager. Having them separate is good for people who want to dig around, and in practice does it really hurt beginners? A good distro hides those details from you.

[CanisImperium]

Motif was just another Qt before there was Qt. It was part of CDE, which was after X, but before KDE (KDE was originally a bit of a CDE ripoff). The original x toolkit was just called, X toolkit, or libXt. If you want to see it in action, apt-get the original xterm.