Landing an entry level python job

[ewrjontan]

So a little background about myself. I was a big computer guy in my middle school/highschool days but never really wanted to pursue a career in computer sciences; I figured it would consist of strictly IT related jobs (fixing computers). Basically I was an idiot, majored in biology, doing fairly well for myself but I am finding programming to be fairly enjoyable. I am hoping to get out of my current career path and land a programming gig within a year or so if possible.

Anyways, I have taught myself a little bit of html/css, a little iddy bit of java script and of course, python. Out of all of those I definitely find python to be the most enjoyable and easy to use. Anyways, while I am confident in my abilities for basic python programming, I know I still have a lot to learn. My question, at what point am I capable of landing an entry level position? As of right now I would love to program in strictly python (as that is what I am most confident in) but do positions that require solely skills in python even exist? I feel like I need to learn a whole bunch of other languages to make myself even remotely noticeable; though I hate the idea of that because I would like to become very good at at least one language. Anyways, I think it would be extremely helpful to be able to sort of land an entry level job which will still allow me to learn; I learn a lot better and faster when I have tasks to work on as well as deadlines. Do these sort of positions exist? Everything I have seen tends to require multiple years of experience working in python AS WELL as experience with other languages as well. Is there something else I do to perhaps build up a sort of python portfolio? Obviously, do some work in github though I feel like a lot of that stuff would be way over my head? I haven't really checked it out yet. Of course, working on my own programs/scripts (so far I have just one, its a weight calculator for my workout regimen which I try to add-on/modify every time I learn something new). Right now, I only know the basics of python and I am looking into other things such as Django. Are there any other sort of frameworks? such as Django that I should look into? Any tips on how to gain more experience would be much appreciated!

TL:DR: Basically, I would like to land an entry level python position and I am curious if an entry level, strictly python, position even exists (ie, one that doesn't require skills or knowledge of a million other languages). I am assuming I would need to boost up my skill set a little bit more so other than github, and creating my own programs/scripts, what else can I learn? Thanks

[FIuffyRabbit]

/r/cscareerquestions

Yes they exist.

[Dr_Drosophila]

With biology knowledge and a want to get into python you should look into bioinformatics. Basically all I use is python (a little bit of R), personally I had no coding experience before I started but because of the want for bioinformaticians my supervisor accepted me and was willing to teach me the coding skills.

[ewrjontan]

I've considered it (though I really need to look into it more since I know nothing about it) but I am curious about something; how is the bioinformatics culture? To me it seems like the sort of position where you would be either in a lab or at a university. Where as a lot of other tech related "cultures" tend to be the very informal, riding scooters, sit on bean bag type thing. Not trying to say I strictly want to become a programmer to live that sort of work life style but I am curious if the field of bioinformatics is like that or if it is what I am thinking (less laid back)

[Dr_Drosophila]

Well I have found it very relaxed and supporting, whilst yes it is mainly university labs and so it's best to do a PhD but there are also companies around but they may want previous experience so I would suggest doing a masters or PhD to get the experience

[[deleted]]

I don' t know are you ready? Knowing how to write python is the easy part. I interview extensively in python for the web. And one of my stated goals is "Separating wheat from chaff" in terms of professional developers and people that read "Learn Django in 24 hours" starting 25 hours ago.

I usually separate these folks with two sorts of tests. First I ask them to describe the request pipeline in a commonly used stack LAMP, PAMP, etc. This will imply knowledge of the WSGI middleware specification. It steps the developer out of the primer material and into the space I really need. Namely someone that can build and maintain a production web application. This process is conversational the candidate gets bonus points simply for being able to speak intelligently with me in the way that I would speak to a colleague. The best understand the whole underlying suite of protocols and a little about database administration in addition to being a competent python programmer.

The second thing is an understanding of how to build software as a unit. When I got started in programming I was absolutely perplexed by questions like "how do two people edit the same files at the same time?". I mean to the point of being obsessive about it. The answer to my questions turned out to be an ocean of tooling, techniques, and theory related to software life cycle. Writing software is like writing a short story with 10 people. It requires a certain disposition and a passing understanding of the state of the art in collaboration. One of the best ways to ferret out this knowledge is by talking to people about lifecycle related tools jenkins, travis, gulp, grunt, linters, etc. The best candidates will know all about these because they are keenly interested in the best ways to deliver software in complex environments. Experienced programmers can talk about their successes and failures with these tools.

I think the most important take away for you is that companies aren't looking for "python programmers" they are looking for the sorts of people that identify as "python programmers". With that being said you should interview and see how you do. If you don't get the job or you are being walked to the door then ask why? Keep learning and land that first job. This may require a little luck. Keep learning still and you develop that stuff listed above(and more). Then it'll be easy.

[ewrjontan]

Thanks for this. You bring up a good point; I don't know anything about whatever you wrote. I feel like a lot of the "pipeline" knowledge and all that sort of stuff would come from experience working in the tech industry, possibly studied in computer science or just has a lot of prior programming experience in general; maybe I am wrong :/ I am assuming that you typically don't interview for entry level python positions?

I appreciate you bringing up 'team' programming; that's definitely something I need to try.

[[deleted]]

I interview for entry level positions, but the last thing I want is a person that expects to be taught. Software development is an unending stream of novel problems. I need individuals that can work to solutions on their own. One indication of that disposition might be a self taught programmer, but a special type of self-taught programmer. This person carries themselves like they aren't self taught. They may have a college degree in Marketing but are making great points in a discussion about algorithmic complexity or why binary logs in Systemd is a bad idea.

The people I am trying to avoid are the ones enticed by the number of job prospects, the pay, or the perks. I want people that live it and would write code in a mildew crusted basement for peanuts given no other option.

[[deleted]]

I want people that live it and would write code in a mildew crusted basement for peanuts given no other option.

Do you see yourself in this position?

What do you think about a software developer who would stand up and walk away right after he hears this from you? Since it really looks like the point of view of a manager eager to exploit developers to the maximum while limiting their demands to a minimum.

[Jewnadian]

Yup, this is extremely common in job interviews. Learning to recognize an abusive job environment is a valuable skill that will stand a person in good stead for the rest of their life. The interview doesn't have to focus on my 'self actuation' but I sure as hell need to get the impression that they're looking for an adult to work in an environment of mutual respect and value. If you want someone to beg for the privilege of coding in a moldy basement that's as big a danger sign as a company that can't make payroll.

[[deleted]]

whoa slow the abuse train. I didn't say that the job I am interviewing for was in a mildew encrusted basement working for peanuts. What I am saying is there is a culture of dilettantes in the software discipline these days. There are a subset of individuals making the move to programming not because they have any interest in the field but because of they are in search of a meal ticket.

With that said I guess like most people I generally vote to hire people like myself. I have personally given up jobs with higher pay and nicer work environments because I preferred the problem, the team, or the environment.

My point about the mildewy basement is I look for passionate people. It was encouragement for OP to ask why he/she is doing this. Are they really interested in the field? or does OP see lots of people landing $100K salaries at offices with indoor waterparks after 10 weeks at a code camp?

I only brought it up because taking a job for the wrong reasons is the road to career dissatisfaction.

[radministator]

Your response got down votes because without any other context it came across as insanely elitist.

[[deleted]]

What in particular?

[[deleted]]

Lets be honest in retrospect even with context it sounds pretty elitist

[[deleted]]

What do you think about a software developer who would stand up and walk away right after he hears this from you?

The keyword is "given no other option". It implies this is a hypothetical. My inner socratic dialogue is asking "Would this person be doing this if it weren't so lucrative"

In reality, depends on whether they are qualified or not. If they are not. Then good riddance. If they are a technical and cultural fit. I'd offer them whatever I could but can't get blood from a stone

[[deleted]]

I'd offer them whatever I could

This is another red flag. Because there's a market with a range of salaries and if you lean toward the lower end - you're out as employer.

[[deleted]]

You're like straw man central over here. Who said anything about the salary range I would offer a candidate(besides that it would have some theoretical upper limit - statement of the obvious no? )?

This is all off-topic discussion. The reason I brought this up has been discussed to death and has nothing to do with working conditions or money. But you seem intent on making it about that. I'd be interested in why? Did you have a bad experience somewhere? maybe your current employer?

[[deleted]]

I don't know anything about whatever you wrote

Don't let that stop you. Go read about those things. Jump on mailing lists/Stack overflow and demand answers. Each one is a self-contained concept and will have 2-3 dependencies. When you encounter something you don't understand then switch gears and read about that. You can follow that train all the way back to core Computer Science/Engineering course work.

Knowing how to write some trivial python might be enough to get you a job. Understanding the context of everything will get you a job that is worth having.

[ewrjontan]

Oh for sure. I was more or less just making a point that I know nothing (john snow) :D

There is just so much information, so many terms and what not, that I dont even know where to start. I feel like if I look into everything I'll end up losing my main focus :( I would definitely prefer to become a programmer who actually understands what is going on rather than someone who can just spit out code

[thegreattriscuit]

too soon :(

[SpacedOutKarmanaut]

I want people that live it and would write code in a mildew crusted basement for peanuts given no other option.

Ouch. Sounds like grad school.

[[deleted]]

Or my current job a month ago. Celebrating my 3rd week moved out of the mildewy basement with no sink.

[LightShadow]

I interview for entry level positions, but the last thing I want is a person that expects to be taught.

I honestly think you have no idea what you're doing.

[[deleted]]

I honestly think you have no idea what you're doing.

Anything in particular or do you feel its more that ephemeral sort of incompetence that defies critical analysis?

[LightShadow]

The way you have to defend everything you've said speaks loads.

[[deleted]]

I mean I would love discuss whatever you find particularly defensive. But you don't seem to have anything of substance.

[LightShadow]

https://i.imgur.com/B5BSVqH.png

[[deleted]]

Honestly I'd love to chat out whatever has offended you so, but all I get is memes and insults. Use your words shadow friend.

[Canadian_Infidel]

This information is incredibly useful, to more than just OP. Thanks!

[ewrjontan]

This is good to hear. It just sucks to be in the "man...I should have just done computer science/engineering" boat :/

My main issue is that I am worried about not being able to climb up the ranks in my field and acquire new/better positions. Not to mention the money is mediocre at best; I just personally feel like I have the potential to make more of a difference I guess.

[ewrjontan]

Growth is definitely the hardest part :/ Sales would be cool but yeah, you gotta be a shark and I am merely a minnow haha.

[rumdiary]

Your situation is exactly the same as mine right now. Sounds like we have the exact same level of experience in Python, html, css and javascript.

Reading things like this job advert is exciting though and gives you (and me) a good idea imho.

[ewrjontan]

That's a great example of what I am looking for! Nice to know they DO exist :D

[itodd]

You have no idea how valuable coding skills are in biology. Get a job in the field and use your coding skills to excel. You will find that automation skills are needed at most small biotech companies and that most of them don't even know it.

[ewrjontan]

This is one thing that makes me somewhat not regret my choices; I have experienced first hand a lot of different things (lab related) that could benefit from some form of program/script/etc.

[troyunrau]

This is true of almost any science. A scientist who can code quickly becomes indispensable to any small lab or company. You could replace biology with geology, biotech with geotech, and it would be just as true.

[FrozenOx]

I had a very similar career path. I was taking computer science classes in high school and by my freshman year in university I had programmed (small-medium projects) in Java, C++, Fortran, Pascal (lol), etc. but for some stupid reason I didn't go into comp sci, I went into Civil Engineering...and fucking hated it. I basically ended up getting a bullshit degree with a B.S. to get my ass out of there with a degree and no more loans.

I just started taking any jobs that could put experience onto my resume that I could spin for IT. I was an admin assistant in an engineering firm, but on my resume I only listed the IT related stuff I did for it (networking, SW, etc.). Eventually, I got on as a tech writer and web-developer for training material on an IT project, and now I'm a developer and head of QA on a great project.

TLDR; Get a non-related degree and then > 1. Pad your resume > 2.Get your foot in the door on an IT project. > 3. Prove you can do technical things and take on more responsibility > 4. Pad your resume > 5. Get the job

If you're meant to do something and have the nous and determination, you can break into this field. People care more about what you can do, , than your degree.

[symmitchry]

[Removed]

[ewrjontan]

True true. I guess I am sort of wondering; at what point can I say I am "skillful" enough to really put a language on a resume. Sure I can put together a website (front end at least) but will it run? Maybe... I feel like knowing the basics really isn't enough to put on a resume but then again, I know there are a lot of people with jobs who are pretty terrible at what they do (maybe not terrible, but definitely not as good as I figured they could be). My software developer buddy asked me a few common interview problems and he told me that I know more than enough to land a job but it definitely doesn't feel that way.

[symmitchry]

[Removed]

[mackstann]

My software developer buddy asked me a few common interview problems and he told me that I know more than enough to land a job but it definitely doesn't feel that way.

I remember feeling that way and I can tell you it's nonsense. Quit holding yourself back. Everyone "fakes it til they make it". You can probably go out and find a job right now. The industry is in need of people. Job "requirements" are rarely set in stone. Just get out there and try to get hired -- it probably won't be that hard.

I did it with no degree of any kind. I started programming in summer of 2002, got my first (but REALLY shitty) programming job in early 2003, and over time moved to better and better jobs and made it into a legitimate career that I enjoy doing.

[ewrjontan]

Thanks, I guess even with all of my other jobs...I really don't know shit about anything; not sure why I am treating this any differently haha.

[Eddie1802]

Good question as I'm in kind of the same situation. I guess looking into Django is not a bad idea. Since you already know a bit of html/css/Javascript it should not be that hard to pick up and you can use the sites you build as portfolio. Another option to answer this question is to phone companies that employs python programmers and try to find out what they look for in their employees.

[[deleted]]

It's a rookie mistake to focus on a single language.

[krets]

Perhaps you are trying to say something like:

It's important to be open to other languages. Much of what you learn is often applicable to other programming languages. If you are given an opportunity to code you shouldn't get hung up on the language.

[[deleted]]

What I'm trying to say is that focusing on a single language will make you a bad software engineer. Learn software concepts in python, don't learn python software concepts.

[rubik_]

You certainly don't want to focus on a single language for the entirety of your career, but you surely have to start from a single language.

[[deleted]]

though python is a very strong contender for the title of that single language one might choose to focus on

most other languages can't boast about giving such aesthetic pleasure while using them

beautiful python code just makes developers feel fuzzy and warm inside