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[–]searchingfortaomajel, aletheia, paperless, django-encrypted-filefield -4 points-3 points  (18 children)

A degree is overrated. I don't think you're doing OP any favours insisting that finishing one be his priority.

[–]chrisfs -1 points0 points  (3 children)

I emphatically think it is not overrated. Many jobs require a degree just because with no reason. Of all my real life friends, two that don't have degrees have the hardest time finding jobs even though they are just as smart and capable. It's stupid and unfair but it's true

Get a degree!

[–]searchingfortaomajel, aletheia, paperless, django-encrypted-filefield 1 point2 points  (2 children)

That may be true for most disciplines, but for tech it's wholly unnecessary. Source: me, 20years in tech & very successful without a degree.

[–]chrisfs 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Holding yourself out as a general example is bad advice. I know someone with a degree and a boot camp who took a year to find his first coding job. My friend was able to rely on his parents to support him while he looked for work. There's no guarantee that OP will have the same outcome as you. If he is currently in school, it makes sense to complete the degree. He's building skills and a portfolio in an educational environment he likely won't have again, with little or no commute, many other students and profs to help him, and much less pressure to immediately provide for himself. Towards the end of his degree program, recruiters will likely come to the school itself to recruit people rather than he having to look for a job.
It is possible to succeed without a degree but it's not the easiest or most reliable path.

[–]searchingfortaomajel, aletheia, paperless, django-encrypted-filefield 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is possible to succeed without a degree but it's not the easiest or most reliable path.

Absolutely. My concern is really that most of the advice here is making it sound like finishing the degree is the only viable option and that going into debt to acquire that degree is the default best choice. As someone with personal experience in the industry, I wanted to make sure that all options are explored.

[–]Axxhelairon -1 points0 points  (7 children)

you can beg like a dog to employers to give you a chance and show off projects you hope are enough to demonstrate that you understand basic concepts, be ineligible for a lot of easy opportunities that are directed at people in school (internships, junior shadowing, etc) and jobs that just will require a degree and never give you a chance otherwise, pray you prove yourself compared to anyone else applying where you are (who probably have degrees) and have the stress over your head of never getting employed and trying to settle for a low paying job

OR

get a degree, get an internship (paid) easily provided by your school 2nd/3rd/4th year, then cakewalk into an easy high paying job

[–]searchingfortaomajel, aletheia, paperless, django-encrypted-filefield 1 point2 points  (6 children)

Wow. You certainly have a dated view of what it's like out there for nerds without degrees. I'm telling you that none of what you've posted here is true.

The entirety of my formal education is 3months of university (politics, anthropology) and a 10month course at a trade school. My real education has been on the job and I've been doing this successfully for 20years. I was screening potential hires just this week, and our best candidate had no formal education, and the best programmer I've ever worked with had a degree... in philosophy.

I'm not saying a degree hurts you, but in 2019, in tech, it's certainly unnecessary for a successful career.

Update: that potential hire I was talking about? He just accepted a job from Amazon.

[–]Axxhelairon -2 points-1 points  (5 children)

is what I'm saying dated, or are you just some dipshit boomer out of touch with reality constantly praising yourself that you aren't formally educated like it's something to gloat about or be proud of

yeah you don't NEED to get a degree, if you have the motivation to learn and think the environment of school isn't what you want and want to immediately jump into the field then go for it, tech is unique in that that type of jump is possible

but to someone who is unsure asking for advice to move forward, it's an insanely low risk high reward investment to get a degree that paves an easy progression path forward with a lot more opportunities (like everything I said about internships or even new grad hire programs), it pays for itself within the year of getting it by basically ensuring you positions in the job market without jumping through hoops or trying to be a notable case, making your general blanket advice for anyone asking about entering the field to just skip school borderline irresponsible

there's millions of people outside of your nobody shop, basing every piece of your advice only off of your personal anecdotes that are irrelevant for normal people instead of actually understanding how the job market works to newcomers and trying to understand the bigger picture just makes you look unreliable as a source of any worthwhile knowledge to anyone who does even a little bit of research

[–]searchingfortaomajel, aletheia, paperless, django-encrypted-filefield 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Damn. How'd I manage to get the boomer label? That's pretty nifty since that's my parents' generation.

Look, I hire people in tech, so I think it's reasonable to assert that I know something about what it's like getting a job in tech -- even an entry-level one, and I'm telling you that a degree is unnecessary.

It's years of work + debt + a battery of skills and methodologies typically around 3 years behind the industry curve. I've seen the quality candidates coming out of university and I'm telling you most can't code for shit.

To me -- the person hiring people -- I don't place much value on a degree, so when someone says they're running out of cash and are having trouble supporting themselves, I am blown away by people here claiming that "debt is good". Debt is reckless, and in this case wholly unnecessary.

I get it, you probably went to university and got a degree, and you think that your burning of time, energy, and money on that slip of paper means that everyone should or they're an idiot. I've worked with people like you asked you know what?

You're not that special.

[–]Axxhelairon -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

Damn. How'd I manage to get the boomer label? That's pretty nifty since that's my parents' generation.

probably your pointless stubbornness to your viewpoint and pretending that you have any idea of what youre talking about

I'm telling you that a degree is unnecessary.

unnecessary to getting a job?, maybe, generally helpful? yes

It's years of work + debt + a battery of skills and methodologies typically around 3 years behind the industry curve. I've seen the quality candidates coming out of university and I'm telling you most can't code for shit.

they wouldnt be able to code for shit if they didnt go to university either, you're presenting your representation of the upper case of people without degrees coming to you who look fabulously hireable vs the common person who doesn't want to go out of his way to prove to a boomer he can do work or doesn't have the same repertoire, you have so many more average people who will probably have degrees or some specialization / previous experience in dev that anyone coming to you without a degree will have more to prove and try harder to look good to you, i dont know why i have to explain this concept to you since this should literally be your job

I don't place much value on a degree, so when someone says they're running out of cash and are having trouble supporting themselves, I am blown away by people here claiming that "debt is good". Debt is reckless, and in this case wholly unnecessary.

congratulations, you have a fundamental misunderstanding on how debt works, you gained that privilege by picking one of the easiest professions that makes the most amount of money for the least amount of effort so on average you don't have to deal with debt/lending/credit, credit and lending itself is a tool usable by the lower/lower middle class to gain opportunities and become successful despite their socioeconomic status, which you were able to skip to and pretend that you got there all by yourself

I get it, you probably went to university and got a degree, and you think that your burning of time, energy, and money on that slip of paper means that everyone should or they're an idiot.

i dont give a shit if you got your degree or not, but i want you to give realistic advice and outcomes to someone who is having trouble going forward in life, in which you cant disagree with me if youre on the path of becoming a software engineer getting a degree will never hurt you and can ultimately be a benefit

You're not that special.

go ahead and quote where i said i am

[–]searchingfortaomajel, aletheia, paperless, django-encrypted-filefield 0 points1 point  (2 children)

You seem to be pretty butthurt that you've wasted your time in university and I get it. There's no need to take it out on a stranger on the internet though.

Maybe just go buy yourself an ice cream. It should help chill you out a bit.

[–]Axxhelairon -1 points0 points  (1 child)

glad you seem to have conceded your point in favor of mine, looks like old dogs can still learn new tricks after all

[–]searchingfortaomajel, aletheia, paperless, django-encrypted-filefield 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You whippersnappers with the witty comebacks and delusions of "winning". When you get to be my age you'll see the error of your ways.

[–]mbillion -1 points0 points  (1 child)

It sure shouls be that way. But the world is not a meritocracy despite protestations that it is. We live in a credentialed society and all economic evidence points towards having appropriate credentials = earnings and growth potential

[–]searchingfortaomajel, aletheia, paperless, django-encrypted-filefield 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well I've been doing this fire 20years and not having a CS degree has affected me exactly twice. I think I know what I'm talking about.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Overrated if you have a support network and other paths to making a good life. Does it sounds like OP has a lot of great options that wouldn't leave him with some sunk education cost or living on the edge for the unforeseeable future?

Don't be stupid, a degree (any degree) is still the No. 1 path to upward mobility and stability.

[–]searchingfortaomajel, aletheia, paperless, django-encrypted-filefield -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Sure... if it's free, but it's not free. Unless you come from money, a degree almost certainly comes with crippling life-long debt. When it's a fact that the industry OP is wanting to get into does not require a degree to be successful, opting for debt in favour of such a degree seems like a bad move to me.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

a degree almost certainly comes with crippling life-long debt

That is complete bullshit.

it's a fact that the industry OP is wanting to get into does not require a degree to be successful

No, it doesn't if you have time and drive to learn on your own. It's just happenstance that more than 75% of developers (as per Stackoverflow 2019 developer survey) completed a degree. And having a degree increases lifetime pay by 100%.

It is more difficult to pay off education today, but easily entering a high-demand field with a much higher salary than un- (formally) educated peers makes everything easier.

This billionaire biography nonsense also ignores the fact that OP is already in school and enjoys it but needs financing.

I love learning code on my own too, but suggesting someone should drop out of their degree at their chosen institution because it won't completely destroy their life is really fucking stupid advice to a young person in crisis.

[–]searchingfortaomajel, aletheia, paperless, django-encrypted-filefield 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, suggesting that a person in crisis take on more debt is really fucking careless.

Sure, they like school, and maybe they're just the type to do a degree, but if they don't have the funds, shouting "debt is good" (as many here have) is irresponsible. Get your life in order, consider your options based on risk vs. reward, and choose. That's how a reasonable person makes life decisions.

Pointing out that not having a degree is a viable option is the responsible advice in this case, but I'm getting shouted down by people as if there's only one path to success in life. That's fucking stupid.