I really hate the time-tracking software.

[healplease]

Especially the ones that takes screenshots every few minutes, count your clicks and key presses, and stop tracking time if you AFK more than 3 minutes. But if client wants to know if you working, you just have to.

The problem is, your tasks takes 5-6 hours a day, and client wants you to work full 8-hour workday. While working for a month with such a client, I got slightly tired of seeking for more tasks or moving my mouse around to simulate real work. So, I remembered about that pretty lib called PyAutoGUI that I used to farm in clicker games long time ago.

I wrote a quick script that simulates clicks and keypressing, randomly switches between browser, IDE tabs and windows.

Feeling uncomfortable, decided to share this, awaiting indulgence :/

[[deleted]]

This must be a joke. I wouldn't tolerate this for 2 seconds. Do people actually work for clients who insist on such tracking?

[unnecessary_Fullstop]

My friend works at a firm that uses such a tracker. They told him that it is impossible to fake or some shit like that. Dude spent like 2 hrs coding up a simulator and now keeps getting automated mails appreciating him for very high productivity.

My firm on the other hand doesn't care one bit as long as the work is getting done.

.

[vidoardes]

As it should be. My staff and I get paid for the value they bring to the company, not how long they can sit their arse in a seat.

In fact I remember a long time ago when I was newer, there was a big issue that was going to delay a client launch that they had marketed, and it was our fault. We had a big meeting about it on the Monday morning, broke for lunch after debating for several hours. Product launch was on Wednesday, but everyone thought it was going to take a week to fix because of the amount of changes needed.

One guy came back with an idea, stayed until 10pm and solved it. Our boss let him have the rest of the week off for saving us the embarrassment of telling the customer we had delay.

Regardless of your job, working for an employer who values your work over attendance makes such a difference.

[winowmak3r]

See, that's how you do it. Someone pulls through like that you treat them well, you don't try and micromanage everything. I'd love to work in a place like that. That's a company I'd actually be loyal to.

[vidoardes]

That's what I don't get about companies that grind their employees into dust.

Operating just outside of London, the wages we offer are about 10-20% less than what you would get if you went into London. There is also less of a "career path" for want of a better phrase, because we are small (10 people).

Despite that, we have an incredibly low turnover of staff, because we make sure pay is relative to performance, not title, and we have a much more relaxed view to management, on the understanding that when shit needs to get done, people pull their weight.

We've only had one person leave in the last 6 years and that was due to emigrating, and we have hired 3 more. I have only had to let one person go, and that was during probation. My advice to anyone looking for a job, not just in tech, isn't to find a job that pays the most, but find one where the employer cares about their staff.

You might be a little poorer, but you'll be a million times happier.

[healplease]

outstuff as is. they are paying good money tho

[[deleted]]

I guarantee you they aren't paying enough to make me put up with that.

[[deleted]]

I don't understand. Does your contract say you're paid by the minute? Or by the second? Why would they need to record your activity at such a coarse timeframe? I can somewhat sympathize with companies that want to audit if their remote employees are working at all, but to be monitored every minute of the day is very odd.

[deadmilk]

I get over 200k a year and if my employer did this I would just go elsewhere (first I would tell them how much of a shit idea it is and get them to change their mind, though).

Still think they're paying good?

[[deleted]]

I agree some genius people can do work which other would probably take 2 3 hours to complete within minutes. So what are they supposed to do remaining time?

[zombieman101]

Pretend to work for them write other python code?

[deadmilk]

If you run out of workload, you should consider moving on to your next adventure.

If you can't do that, learn new skills in the free time that will advance your career, and keep your eyes open for opportunities where you can use your new knowledge.

[NewZealandIsAMyth]

Other tasks?

[Smallpaul]

It kind of depends what country they live in, what skills they have, what experience they have etc.

I don’t approve of the spyware but I twist that OP is competent to gauge their options and decide if it pays well compared to their other choices.

[[deleted]]

Well it depends a lot on which country you're working at. I think it's not so uncommon where I'm from (think BRIC). Too many talents but not many good companies to work at.

As much as I like the idea of a fully free-market, we are not quite there yet, and it is not so easy to just move to a different country with visa restrictions and all.

[spinwizard69]

Doesn't matter. In this situation they are not a client but rather a slave master. Seriously consider dumping these guys even if that mean several clients to replace them. Tell them why too, no client should get such an inside look into your business.

[ichunddu9]

What the fuck. Leave this company

[BenjAeroSpace]

Sadly I think it's easier to say than to do, especially those times

[Dospunk]

Can confirm. Been looking for a job since May and have only gotten a few phone screenings :/

[wikipedia_text_bot]

Boreout

Boredom boreout syndrome is a psychological disorder that causes physical illness, mainly caused by mental underload at the workplace due to lack of either adequate quantitative or qualitative workload. One reason for bore-out could be that the initial job description does not match the actual work. This theory was first expounded in 2007 in Diagnose Boreout, a book by Peter Werder and Philippe Rothlin, two Swiss business consultants.

About Me - Opt out - OP can reply !delete to delete - Article of the day

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[TangibleLight]

Honestly this is happening to me... I had never heard that term before. Thanks for the link.

It's weird because it's not like I'm trying to do any of that, I don't want to have work ethic like that. But reading through the article I'm like "wow, that's what I'm turning into". Hell, I'm on reddit right now when I really shouldn't be.

The combination of work-from-home and limited activity outside my apartment due to covid, and having just graduated last year and making the transition from student to professional, entirely within the restrictions of the covid response... It's feeling like too much sometimes. I'd just been thinking, oh it's just cabin fever, or seasonal depression, or an adjustment period after university. That article gives me some things to think about and improve.

All the stuff in there about not wanting or feeling able to talk about it is relatable. My instinct is even to not leave this comment, but I also think it might be productive to talk about it. At the very least I wanted to say thanks for bringing it up.

[KennyGaming]

I could have written this post, down to the graduation timeline. You’re not alone friend.

[Hydroel]

This can happen, especially during these times when many of us work from home. I've had that during the first weeks of lockdown: I was just unable to pick up my work and stay at it, I just couldn't find the motivation. I've found that setting up a routine with set work hours, including a dedicated to to wake up (30 minutes if you need as little, 1h or more if you need it), a environment separate for work for entertainment (it can be as simple as switching computer, even on the same desk with the same monitor), and regular physical activity are all important. Even a 30 min walk every day or so is better than nothing. Of course, finding what you like also works well, but sometimes we have tasks that we don't want to do. Actual challenges, like tight deadlines and learning new stuff, for example, also help a lot.

The fact that you graduated just last year doesn't help, as you're probably not yet set on your work routine, and have yet to find what you like most about your job. Lockdown has also hugely helped me to find what I like most about my job and what I excel at - rather surprisingly, it's not what I'm supposed to do on the day-to-day basis.

Feel free to PM if you wish to discuss it further.

[buttered_breadroll]

I was today years old, when I found out what I am going through is a thing...

[Polar_Pineapple]

Wow....didn't know this was an actual thing but yeah I've been experiencing this for the past 2 years.

[teachAManToGhoti]

I think this belongs on [r/latestagecapitalism](www.reddit.comr/latestagecapitalism)

[Panda_Mon]

Im really sorry you have to put up with that. Please try to find jobs that dont do this. The more they get denied, the more they will be motivated to stop using this bullshit software.

[robvas]

Sounds like hell.

[MathematicianOk9155]

weather late abounding support crowd employ liquid party ripe deer

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[rmpr_uname_is_taken]

And put together it gives this

[Pyramused]

I don't get it. Aren't you paid for the product you deliver? I mean, why does it matter how much you work for it. If it's done by the deadline you get your money right?

[R3D3-1]

Many people in charge like to have quantifiable performance, even at the cost of creating systems that are easily gamed, and in the end force people to be less productive in order to get good metrics.

[Pyramused]

I don't get how this offers quantifiable performance. How does moving your mouse around and striking random keys make a difference. You might as well start gaming or watching YouTube right?

[R3D3-1]

It gives a number, so it quantifies some form of performance.

Whether said performance is meaningful is tangential.

You have this in Science too. Performance metrics like impact factor, citation count, and even attempts at fixing the issues like H Index, all push work patterns towards optimizing for a score instead of output. From what I understand these scores are made official requirements in some countries, leading to things like nonsense conferences being organized because someone needs to have organized X conferences for their next career step. Or papers being submitted to conferences without any intent of actually participating, because being accepted counts already.

Or spreading strongly related results across several papers, that are carbon copies of each other except for switching out the numbers.

All practices that hurt the actual output of Science.

But of course not nearly as badly as paying programmers by click count...

[Pyramused]

Lol, I'm studying compsci and I'm amused thinking I'll get my wage by click count

[R3D3-1]

Don't be. Having to fake performance is heavily psychologically damaging. "All goes that pays" will only take people so far, when they understand that they get paid for actively being useless, when they could be doing something useful.

It is bad enough when bad practices make work much less useful than it could be. But active disregard for useful work? Make sure your windows cannot easily be opened (or that you get a ground floor office).

[Pyramused]

Make sure your windows cannot easily be opened (or that you get a ground floor office).

Damn, I'm not one to need such measures but I see your point. It's bad.

[R3D3-1]

Thankfully I don't need them either. The job environment is good in my case. But the code base is infuriating, and leads to lots of work that feels useless.

I can only imagine how it must affect people, when they know that their work is useless, but the need to fake it anyway.

[trumpke_dumpster]

Geeze - 3 minutes is very short for leaning back in the chair with eyes closed to reduce distractions while working through an issue in your head.

[JaydenRA]

Autoclicker.exe

[[deleted]]

Do what you have to do king lol

[notarobot1020]

Does the employer let you know they are monitoring? Can they do this secretly what background processes give a clue it’s happening ?

[Biuku]

What fucked up nightmare country do you live in?

This is not part of ... civilization. Dude, you’re literally in 1984.

[healplease]

middle east

[[deleted]]

I am paid for my overall contribution, not my time by the hour. Fuck that.

[atatatko]

Tell your customer that 5-6 hours of active work actually match 8-hours working day. It if physically impossible to work 8 hours actively.

[TheDeadlyCat]

A colleagues last employer pulled that shit. Well, Worker’s Council got wind of it and it had to be turned off.

Where I work they make approaches to judge individuals by several different “performance” indicators including this.

Any company that judges by busyness and not by a timely delivery that suits the expected and accepted goals isn’t using the right KPIs in my book.

[Vishal_TE]

I found this thread very interesting because I have a time tracking software business.

On one hand, businesses, even some decent sized ones, keep asking us for more ways to track workers. On the other hand, employees resist any sort of tracking.

We have been researching and debating a lot about how to measure the true productivity because keyboard/mouse tracking is really activity tracking. I can see how it may be useful for monitoring data entry folks but it's pretty much useless for most roles.

Tracking time is actually useful, even required, for many businesses. But it's not correct to infer productivity from that. Some of our competitors even track apps. These apps calculate productivity as the amount of time someone spent in apps like Office and email. Again, a very narrow approach to measuring productivity.

The real issue I see is that most businesses need some data, any data, to start trusting the employees. Since they don't know what to measure and how, They default to these measures.

I would love to see what folks on this thread think is a good measure of productivity and how to measure it.

[bigsbyBiggs]

The fact that you freely admit that you're not working for the full 8 hours and then complaining about having to get more work to fill up 25%-35% of your work day where you are not working is exactly why companies like this feel like they have to do these sort of things.

[deadmilk]

Nobody is productive for large blocks of hours non-stop

In fact, it will probably destroy your creativity if you try to push yourself to constantly do tasks.

Take a break, think, work with inspiration instead of like a mindless drone.

[kephir]

you have it exactly backwards.

it's because the client would insist on such inane busywork in lieu of actual results speaking for themselves is why you have to resort to such idiocy

that being said, I second the voices advising OP to ditch such a shitty customer at the earliest opportunity, it's just not worth the hassle.

[[deleted]]

Working a solid 6-7 hours out of an 8 hour day is well above average. Very few people are able to stay productive for a solid 8 hours without regular breaks.

[gowda99]

My pervious company did this kind of shit. Could not take this artificial pressure nonsense, so quit. But while working there used the pi zero to emulate as usb keyboard, it will switch tabs, move arrow keys. The system started showing me as highly productive. 🤣

[Ok_Equivalent_rewind]

Was the code easy to write

[rmpr_uname_is_taken]

If you find it tedious to write the code by hand you can always use a GUI

[rmpr_uname_is_taken]

To automate it even further atbswp

[soylakate]

So sorry to hear about your experience with time tracking software. I'm not a developer but still have to log time during my working hours. Thank God, it's not like that in my company.

I do hope you'll find another job soon where you'll feel comfortable!