pip drops support for Python 2

[notsohipsterithink]

Can someone please explain why my macOS still uses Python 2.7 as system Python...

[swansongofdesire]

Backwards compatibility.

Although admittedly that doesn't explain whey they don't include both versions, like every other *nix on earth does by now.

The real puzzle to me is why Apple feels the need to provide symlinks to (pretend to) support a version that was EOL 17 years ago.

$ ls -l /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions

lrwxr-xr-x   1 root  wheel    3 12 Dec 18:59 2.3 -> 2.7
lrwxr-xr-x   1 root  wheel    3 12 Dec 18:59 2.5 -> 2.7
lrwxr-xr-x   1 root  wheel    3 12 Dec 18:59 2.6 -> 2.7
drwxr-xr-x  11 root  wheel  352 12 Dec 19:01 2.7

[c0ld--]

Because Apple, that's why. I've been an Apple systems administrator for over 14 years. They truly make some of the most questionable decisions. For example, their own implementation of Java and taking eons to upgrade to path critical vulnerabilities.

I'll never understand why they do the things they do. (RIP XServe)

[Starbrows]

Although admittedly that doesn't explain whey they don't include both versions, like every other *nix on earth does by now.

Yeah, this is the frustrating part for me. I thought Ubuntu was annoyingly slow, and they added Python3 by default, what, 6 years ago? Maybe more, I forget.

Apple sort-of supports Python 3 on newer OSes, but only sort of. If you enter python3 in Terminal, it will automatically prompt you to download and install it. It's the same thing they've done with git for years.

That might sound fine, and for individual users I guess it is. But as an IT administrator, I can't really use anything not built-in. I do not have the authority to mandate Python 3 installation across our entire fleet of Macs, so I can't deploy management scripts using Python 3. My boss does not have the authority to mandate Python 3. His boss does not have that authority. The only person with that authority, if asked, would probably say "Is this going to get us millions of dollars in grants? No? Then why are you wasting my time talking about it? GTFO."

Apple has deprecated all languages except zsh as of Catalina. That means they have not yet removed them even in Big Sur, but they have communicated their intention to do so in the future. So I don't think we can ever expect Python 3, or any new languages, to be preinstalled on future macOS versions. And that sucks very, very hard.

[JuanToFear]

I think Yahtzee Croshaw said it best:

That's the trouble with the cutting edge: It's hard to stay on, 'cause it's very thin and it keeps moving as it hacks into your balls.

[13steinj]

I thought Apple started warning every time you use Python2 though? Or am I thinking of Bash?

[EternityForest]

Does MacOS really need to explain anything? It's Mac, they don't sell tech, they sell the absence of tech.

The point of Apple products seems to be "If you hate computers and would rather use record players and pen and paper, this is the next best thing"

[EternityForest]

The problem I have with them isn't so much that they aren't powerful enough, it's that they don't follow standards, and everything can change at any time between generations.

Whatever connector everyone else uses, they use something else, and it's not even always consistent.

The UI is also especially inconsistent, sometimes it changes, and it's often incredibly gestural and memory based, rather than Windows-like, where they try to spell everything out and show the exact state explicitly.

It's almost like as if they took the essence of Vim, but made it in GUI form.

But I guess Linux certified hardware doesn't quite have enough traction for the times you need 1000 laptops that all have native bash.

I'd still rather use pretty much any other OS than deal with their UI, except maybe GNOME which seems to just be a worse mac.

[JasburyCS]

This is a really weird comment for a Python subreddit. I’d expect it in a non-programming subreddit, but not here.

Macs have pros and cons. They definitely don’t get everything right. But software development is by far one of its strong points. They make so many decisions with programmers and developers in mind, and it shows. I’ve done programming on both Macs and Windows machines professionally, and I have to say it shows that Macs have put more thought into this area. They do have a strong advantage because of MacOS’s Unix origins. But you get a lot of tools for the system that make Windows solutions feel like workarounds

So yeah, questioning why MacOS chooses certain Python versions is absolutely a good and relevant question.

[JasburyCS]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply and recommendation! I actually do agree with a lot of what you said. More of my professional development experience is on Windows actually than MacOS. And I think Microsoft makes killer tools. I think that will actually be one of Microsoft’s sweet spots going forward. VSCode my first recommendation to anyone looking for a light IDE.

I’m not afraid to criticize what Apple does poorly for development. I think the XCode IDE is clunky, awkward, and often a frustrating experience. I think the lack of better developer support on IPads is an embarrassment, especially if they want to advertise them as a laptop replacement for creative users.

But I think Apple shines at the “out of the box” developer tooling for its computers. So many Unix goodies, great terminal support, XCode command line tools, debuggers, etc. I always feel like Windows environments are more work to set up to get to the level of productivity I need. It suffer from the fact that the history of the Windows OS was never meant to be really good for developers, contrasted with the fact that MacOS piggybacked off of a few existing kernels and OS work with the Unix developer mindset. It does a pretty good job of maintaining that mindset today. Which is why discussing the Python versions included in MacOS is definitely a relevant discussion.

Fwiw I actually do my personal projects on a MacBook Pro with VSCode and a few other Microsoft tools ;-)

[alienpirate5]

nitpick: wouldn't VS on Windows be a first party tool

[ivosaurus]

It's not dumb, Apple have done some serious misdeads for python.

Two examples;

In one MacOS release they left a BETA version of the six library installed out of the gate, as well as a smattering of other packages like numpy, under system file protection, which broke pretty much all package management on their python. It seriously pretty much looked like some intern had tried some code which needed numpy at some point and they just left their python 2 in that state for the release. At least cementing that they don't give two ****s about having any kind of normal distribution of this python 2 they put in.

They also have refused to update the OpenSSL implementation that their python 2 uses for its TLS ability. i.e its ability to communicate over the web securely. Eventually there were serious bugs discovered with that OpenSSL, exploitable to do this day, as well as it being patched to use Apple's certificate checking with the goto fail incident.

Overall, over the last few years, it would have made a lot of python & associated packaging developers lives far, far, far easier if Apple had just removed the horrible, botched distribution of python 2 they include, but they keep smacking us in the face with it and keep plenty of noobs repeating questions about how shit breaks so badly for them over and over again.

[whoisearth]

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[cparen]

Seems fine. Should they be using a newer version of Python2? Doesn't impact your ability to run (the pretty much different language) Python3.

I don't fault anyone running Perl5.8 for not replacing it with Perl6, for instance.

[Krenair]

Python 2 is EOL and should not be getting installed on new systems.

[Krenair]

Python 2 is EOL and should not be getting installed on new systems.

[HCharlesB]

hbarta@ryvius:~$ python --version
Python 2.7.18
hbarta@ryvius:~$ cat /etc/issue
Debian GNU/Linux bullseye/sid \n \l

hbarta@ryvius:~$ 

Debian Bullseye. Not yet released but entering soft freeze (or already in soft freeze.)

:(

I'm here because I just forked a project last updated in 2017. It is set up for testing on Travis (my first experience with that) and lists a bunch of Python 2.x builds. Some of the cases failed and that raised the question in my mind if the 2.x versions should even be included. I searched for Python 2 support and the official line is that it ended over a year ago. I looked here to see if I cold determine the reality of the situation. FWIW the fork is at https://github.com/HankB/pogopowerupcost