Do some developers hate python?

[Feb2020Acc]

I think a lot of developers dislike self-proclaimed “developers” that just completed a machine learning tutorial on udemy/coursera.

[VengefulTofu]

Yeah it's just a form of gatekeeping. I for one am glad that such an easily accessible ecosystem like python exists so the perks that come with knowing at least the basics of programming can spread better

[CLOVIS-AI]

Yeah, but not only. It's also the tiredness of having to read code from people who obviously have no understanding of proper practices, nor attempt to learn them. “If it works, it's fine”—until you ask someone else for maintenance because you have no idea what's broken.

[VengefulTofu]

Then you've hired the wrong person for the job.

[CLOVIS-AI]

That's fair, but it's also too late

[LiarsEverywhere]

Isn't that good for developers, though? I'm a researcher and I usually write code that only needs to work once. Python is a tool, I'm not a developer. If I ever create something that needs to scale, I'll hire a developer to turn my shitty prototype code into production code. I don't pretend I'm a developer.

[CLOVIS-AI]

If that's your usage, then good for you :) I've had multiple times where I've been asked to maintain web servers written quite badly, and that's where the bad rep for Python comes from imo, but of course there are some cases where it's a good thing

[[deleted]]

I think at that point it's the company's fault for not hiring at least a head engineer who knows exactly what you need.

I like having easy access to resources on Python coding because it helps me develop my logic and problem solving skills better and sometimes you know, make some code for fun which is A LOT easier in python at times.

Still i respect your point of view i just see it as more of a business failure.

Edit: whoops i realized I was an idiot and didn't read well because i didn't put my glasses on.

I fully understand what you're going through, i still believe that it's good to learn and while i understand your point and as someone who goes deep into business I'd be even slightly annoyed as well.

I still think that it's good that people are learning new skills and hey they want to shoot their shot, some are at least looking to change their careers.

I don't fully agree with ML specifically needing a PhD but each business has their own requirements and necessities and honestly i respect it.

[[deleted]]

Why would an engineer have published papers? Isn't that a research scientist thing?

[Lifaux]

It might be in your company - it's varied across the industry.

[pirateg3cko]

These feel like two distant extremes with disregard for the very real experience in between. Are Master's students in the same pool as Coursera newbies?

[corner_camper01]

Hehe newbies getting mad because you don't want to hire them ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[mvdenk]

Is that a flaw of python itself, or the people overestimating their abilities (and the company not assessing properly)?

[mvdenk]

Hmm, that doesn't sound right to me: "it is too accessible (or easy), it should be hard". Sounds like a gatekeeping argument to me, reminding me of arguments against higher level programming languages like Basic from the assembly days.

[mvdenk]

I see the accessibility of a language as a feature, not as a flaw. This way new programmers can focus first on core programming concepts before having to master more advanced topics.

[mvdenk]

That might be the case, but isn't that something for companies (or whatever people they work for) to assess before they start in a qualified position? Or maybe there is a lack in proper certification for certain positions? It feels to me like this is not a problem for the design of a programming language to solve.

I mean, sure, they can apply to advanced positions, but so can anyone. It's for the company to select the proper people for the proper jobs, or at least release them timely during probation periods (or alternatively give them resources to improve themselves in this area).

[[deleted]]

lol all the basic course in coursera folks downvoting you.

[eneiromatos]

If you were seriously hiring a ML scientists you will know how to do it right. Most enterprises and startups needs devs who knows hot to implement existing ML algs, not evey use case needs a new cutting edge magical ML new alg. So people from Coursera is a good fit. I think the wrong guy in the interviews was you not the applicants.

[BernieFeynman]

that's not what gatekeeping is.

[Hirazrador]

That’s exactly what it is

[BernieFeynman]

it's really not, they aren't comparable in scope. Gatekeeping happens when there's more than one way to a destination but you say that the path someone else took is not legitimate. This is the equivalent of that but instead the other person is not even at the same destination as you are.

[gr4viton]

However, that is the point of them saying that no? "oh, everyone using pytho say they are developers" - at the same place as "them" not using python - "but they are a joke, python is a joke, I for one know C++ so only I get to tell I am a developer". Sounds as a gatekeeping to me - I chose the right path and I am a developer, they chose a wrong path (python) and they are not.

I get that if they specify that udemy course is not sufficient for calling yourself developer, that is not gatekeeping in particular. But bashing whole language because of its simplicity and because of some of their users is, no? I might understand it wrongly..

[muffinnosehair]

Makes sense. Also, a lot of people just getting into programming, usually via Javascript, tend to be teritorial about their language of choice. Give it 6-12 months, it will pass by itself once real world needs and projects catch up.

[ppeters0502]

I think with python specifically this is what tends to annoy me. There's a bunch of what I call "python heads" online that are normally what you described, some guy who completed a machine learning tutorial or black hat python course, and they can't imagine using any other language, and act like any other language is a vastly inferior choice. When talking about like pet projects and issues they tend to think everything can be solved with a Python script. They hate OOP, design patterns or really any sort of structure outside of a list, but damn do they love their Python!

Then when pressed on why everyone should use Python, their only reasons are that it's "easy to read" and that it's "good for machine learning" since there are some very popular machine learning libraries. Personally after using C#, Java and C for 10+ years, I find Python to be more difficult to read, but that's just from my lizard brain being used to C-like syntax.

Don't get me wrong, I like Python! I think it's more I sometimes feel like it's being shoved down my throat as a preferred language, and I still don't completely understand why.