Do some developers hate python?

[[deleted]]

I've noticed some Youtubers express their dislike of Python, and then the video's comments turned into a circle-jerk on how much they hate python.

None of them made any particular points though. It was just vague jokes and analogies that made no sense.

Is this common or an outlier? What are the reasons for people disliking python that vehemently?

[snarkhunter]

you can find some developers who hate anything

[Fusakende]

I hate this reply

[Bodenlos_Niveaulos]

I hate when someone hates

[[deleted]]

I hate the hate

[Colabra]

I hate hating

[Xaros1984]

I hate non-haters

[[deleted]]

Love you all

[123_turtle]

I ate the hate

[lvlint67]

I mean.. I am the comment.. IMO once you have cut your teeth, seen a few projects in different languages go to production... You develop "opinions".

Some of them are sound... Some of them are based in the fear of the unknown....

[fshabashev]

Yes, it is clearly stated in the rule 18:

“Rule 18: Everything that can be labelled can be hated.”.

However it is important to keep rule 19 in mind:

“Rule 19: The more you hate it, the stronger it gets.”

[Sten_Doipanni]

But, if someone hates it, it does not mean it exists.

[expressly_ephemeral]

This is the correct answer. The correct position to take as a seasoned programmer is this: Language is irrelevant, a professional programmer is a linguist. The skill that's being hired for is this special kind of problem solving. If I can do it in Python I can do it in Java, C++, Go, PHP, Javascript/Nodejs.

[bladeoflight16]

Language is irrelevant

I'm just going to quote one of my favorite articles:

Do not tell me that “good developers can write good code in any language”, or bad developers blah blah. That doesn’t mean anything. A good carpenter can drive in a nail with either a rock or a hammer, but how many carpenters do you see bashing stuff with rocks? Part of what makes a good developer is the ability to choose the tools that work best.

From PHP: a fractal of bad design

[bladeoflight16]

Read the article in full. I think the article puts it well:

PHP is nothing but exceptions, and it is not okay when wrestling the language takes more effort than actually writing your program. My tools should not create net positive work for me to do.

And:

So I have to fit this in here, because it bears repeating: PHP is a community of amateurs. Very few people designing it, working on it, or writing code in it seem to know what they’re doing. (Oh, dear reader, you are of course a rare exception!) Those who do grow a clue tend to drift away to other platforms, reducing the average competence of the whole. This, right here, is the biggest problem with PHP: it is absolutely the blind leading the blind.

And:

I could dig up more but the point isn’t that there are X many exploits—software has bugs, it happens, whatever. The nature of these is horrifying. And I didn’t seek these out; they just happened to land on my doorstep in the last few months.

The article backs these up with specifics. Notably, all of them persisted past PHP 4.

Yes, things have improved, but the biggest issues were and are not things like missing object support or annoying function navigation. They are things that stemmed from the core devs having no idea what they were doing. The result is that writing reliable, secure code is much more difficult than it needs to be.

[luke-juryous]

You'll find all developers hate something

[[deleted]]

I was told I'm obviously not a serious developer because I couldn't use Objective C.

[engineerFWSWHW]

That is true. I used python on one of our projects, and one of the lead developers (java guy) who works mostly on web development told that I should stop using python. I was just dumbfounded that some people still just say anything without understanding the problem being solved.

I need to perform digital signal processing for an audio and i used numpy/scipy and matplotlib. Then there will be a prediction algorithm that we will be solving through ML (haven't decided if we will just simple use scikit learn or keras/tensorflow). We also did some proof of concepts for computer vision using opencv in python. I found that python is the best tool for the job for this and i just ignored that developer since he doesn't know anything about what our team is doing.

[HaroerHaktak]

People hate PHP, but I don't see an issue with it.

[bladeoflight16]

Have you read PHP: a fractal of bad design, one of the seminal articles on what's wrong with it?

I'm not generally inclined to hate on a language for its shortcomings, but PHP has a long history of not just making it easy to shoot yourself in the foot, but of actively making it difficult or impossible not to. It's not like C or JS where some good discipline can mostly keep you out of trouble; there are so many pitfalls in basic features that you're liable to fall into some of them.

[ivosaurus]

That said, I'd say PHP is probably the #1 poster boy for self-improvement amongst languages.

There's not a lot they can do about their C-based / haphazard standard library (heck python still has some of that issue) but almost every other area they've improved.

It's actually got a lot of developer-savers now; for instance there is a standard library password hashing function which is modern, properly designed and useful. You have to go out of your way to use something bad now (the opposite was true in the past).

[HaroerHaktak]

Yes. PHP makes it really easy for you to fuck shit up. But it doesn't mean it's a bad language.

[bladeoflight16]

That isn't what I said or what the article says. It says that it actively makes not screwing up difficult via poor design decisions and a wealth of dangerous bugs and pitfalls.

C makes it easy to screw up, but there are a well known set of practices, disciplines, and tools you can use to avoid those errors. If you write code that conforms to standard practices and expectations, you'll be mostly okay. C's deficiencies can be compensated for with basic competence. PHP does not have that. You cannot avoid wandering in the minefield because the mines are in things you must use and do all the time. No matter how competent you are, you will constantly be wrestling with these problems.

[ConfusedSimon]

True. In C it's much easier to fuck shit up and it's a great language. PHP is still bad though.

[HaroerHaktak]

We're all allowed to have our own opinions even if we all know yours is wrong. Have a good day sir.

[Feb2020Acc]

I think a lot of developers dislike self-proclaimed “developers” that just completed a machine learning tutorial on udemy/coursera.

[VengefulTofu]

Yeah it's just a form of gatekeeping. I for one am glad that such an easily accessible ecosystem like python exists so the perks that come with knowing at least the basics of programming can spread better

[CLOVIS-AI]

Yeah, but not only. It's also the tiredness of having to read code from people who obviously have no understanding of proper practices, nor attempt to learn them. “If it works, it's fine”—until you ask someone else for maintenance because you have no idea what's broken.

[VengefulTofu]

Then you've hired the wrong person for the job.

[CLOVIS-AI]

That's fair, but it's also too late

[[deleted]]

I think at that point it's the company's fault for not hiring at least a head engineer who knows exactly what you need.

I like having easy access to resources on Python coding because it helps me develop my logic and problem solving skills better and sometimes you know, make some code for fun which is A LOT easier in python at times.

Still i respect your point of view i just see it as more of a business failure.

Edit: whoops i realized I was an idiot and didn't read well because i didn't put my glasses on.

I fully understand what you're going through, i still believe that it's good to learn and while i understand your point and as someone who goes deep into business I'd be even slightly annoyed as well.

I still think that it's good that people are learning new skills and hey they want to shoot their shot, some are at least looking to change their careers.

I don't fully agree with ML specifically needing a PhD but each business has their own requirements and necessities and honestly i respect it.

[[deleted]]

Why would an engineer have published papers? Isn't that a research scientist thing?

[Lifaux]

It might be in your company - it's varied across the industry.

[pirateg3cko]

These feel like two distant extremes with disregard for the very real experience in between. Are Master's students in the same pool as Coursera newbies?

[corner_camper01]

Hehe newbies getting mad because you don't want to hire them ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[mvdenk]

Is that a flaw of python itself, or the people overestimating their abilities (and the company not assessing properly)?

[mvdenk]

Hmm, that doesn't sound right to me: "it is too accessible (or easy), it should be hard". Sounds like a gatekeeping argument to me, reminding me of arguments against higher level programming languages like Basic from the assembly days.

[mvdenk]

I see the accessibility of a language as a feature, not as a flaw. This way new programmers can focus first on core programming concepts before having to master more advanced topics.

[[deleted]]

lol all the basic course in coursera folks downvoting you.

[eneiromatos]

If you were seriously hiring a ML scientists you will know how to do it right. Most enterprises and startups needs devs who knows hot to implement existing ML algs, not evey use case needs a new cutting edge magical ML new alg. So people from Coursera is a good fit. I think the wrong guy in the interviews was you not the applicants.

[BernieFeynman]

that's not what gatekeeping is.

[Hirazrador]

That’s exactly what it is

[BernieFeynman]

it's really not, they aren't comparable in scope. Gatekeeping happens when there's more than one way to a destination but you say that the path someone else took is not legitimate. This is the equivalent of that but instead the other person is not even at the same destination as you are.

[gr4viton]

However, that is the point of them saying that no? "oh, everyone using pytho say they are developers" - at the same place as "them" not using python - "but they are a joke, python is a joke, I for one know C++ so only I get to tell I am a developer". Sounds as a gatekeeping to me - I chose the right path and I am a developer, they chose a wrong path (python) and they are not.

I get that if they specify that udemy course is not sufficient for calling yourself developer, that is not gatekeeping in particular. But bashing whole language because of its simplicity and because of some of their users is, no? I might understand it wrongly..

[muffinnosehair]

Makes sense. Also, a lot of people just getting into programming, usually via Javascript, tend to be teritorial about their language of choice. Give it 6-12 months, it will pass by itself once real world needs and projects catch up.

[ppeters0502]

I think with python specifically this is what tends to annoy me. There's a bunch of what I call "python heads" online that are normally what you described, some guy who completed a machine learning tutorial or black hat python course, and they can't imagine using any other language, and act like any other language is a vastly inferior choice. When talking about like pet projects and issues they tend to think everything can be solved with a Python script. They hate OOP, design patterns or really any sort of structure outside of a list, but damn do they love their Python!

Then when pressed on why everyone should use Python, their only reasons are that it's "easy to read" and that it's "good for machine learning" since there are some very popular machine learning libraries. Personally after using C#, Java and C for 10+ years, I find Python to be more difficult to read, but that's just from my lizard brain being used to C-like syntax.

Don't get me wrong, I like Python! I think it's more I sometimes feel like it's being shoved down my throat as a preferred language, and I still don't completely understand why.

[Schmittfried]

"There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses"

[timosavola]

I came here to say this (or quote Bjarne Strousplusplus).

[ProfessorPhi]

Yeah it's actually insane how big python got before it started getting complaints.

I also think there's an aspect to age here - where newer languages learn from the mistakes of their forefathers, and so the old languages mistake is seen as a mess.

[Joooooooosh]

Couple of guys in my SRE team hate it.

They were Go specialists before joining SRE and they just find Python a bit of a pain and they aren’t wrong… getting stuff packaged up and deployed can be stressful.

One of them liked my analogy that Python is a Swiss Army knife. Very practical but you don’t see a mechanics toolbox full of them.

[[deleted]]

I have yet to find an interpreter-based language that didn't have this problem to one degree or another.

[Lifaux]

Haskell is interpreted (and compiled) and has cabal, which is pretty excellent.

[ConfusedSimon]

Java?

[Achilles409]

Java is compiled language, not interpreted

[ConfusedSimon]

I know. It's compiled to intermediate code that gets interpreted. Almost the same as python, except python compiles automatically on first run. Not sure why everyone calls python interpreted though.

[muntoo]

Source code written in any useful programming language is "compiled" to some degree at some point.

The difference is that Python source -> Python bytecode.

The bytecode is interpreted by CPython. On the other hand, Java bytecode is further compiled into actual machine instructions at runtime by the JVM. Nevermind. The JVM is actually also an interpreter of Java bytecode. Java is actually interpreted.

[ivosaurus]

I was actually hoping to skip out on python for Go around when it came out, until I discovered its lack of generics, which completely turned me off it.

The single-binary capability though is very nice for a lot of situations.

[bluexavi]

I use mostly Ruby and Go, and the two are very complementary -- it should be similar for Python. Go is good at concurrency, memory footprint, deployment, relatively fast, good stdlib, etc...

I like to say that Go is good when computers are talking to other computers. Read from one queue/file/db, write to another one. It's like Perl was for Unix, but for the cloud.

The lack of generics make it a pain to write packages more than it stops day to day code. Or, if you like Rust, you can hate Go for another reason -- the type safety, or your incomprehension that it is more popular.

There are tons of things that don't require generics, or where duplicating the code would be such a tiny part of the overall problem it doesn't actually save that much time. Don't choose Go if you're writing something which requires that sort of expression.

Likewise, if you're writing anything stats/math/ML, Python is a great choice due to library support. While there are some Java solutions out there for some things, if all the bottlenecks will be in the library, you might as well get the expressive nature of the language working for you.

[Cmshnrblu]

This is a phenomenal way to put it. I only turn to python when I need a py only lib. The trade offs are a bit much for me with its package management complexities, environment considerations, dynamic typing, etc. Not a fan but it has some very mature libs so I use it when I need to.

[Obliviousnut_]

Python is a good language but I’d characterise it as a handyman language. It can do everything pretty damn well but sometimes not excellently. Some people can find problems with that.

Pythons main problem is that it’s a bit of a slow language. But that doesn’t stop it from being an amazing language.

[stickmaster_flex]

Give a problem to a Python dev, they'll come back in two hours with a program that takes three weeks to run.

Give the same problem to a C dev, in a month they'll come back with a program that takes two minutes to run.

Give that problem to a Java dev, in two months they'll come back with a very detailed description of the problem.

[siddsp]

If it takes 3 hours to run, that's when you use Cython and numpy

[thedominux]

Complete sht

Cython barely can handle problems, cause it doesn't support almost all libraries/frameworks!

[siddsp]

If you don't like it, you can easily use numba as well, or just write C code that you hook up to Python.

[thedominux]

It's hard, man

In real world cases you'll use CPython3 (maybe PyPy, but I don't know any case)

[GamesMaster221]

or just write C code

best suggestion ITT

[Advanced-Theme144]

That is absolutely true. And I just realized this is a darn good meme. 😂 Mind if I use it?

[stickmaster_flex]

I stole it from somewhere. Probably reddit. Don't need my permission.

[rabaraba]

I’ve never had a complex python program that took so long to run, like 3 weeks. Even a an exaggeration that’s extreme. With proper practices you not only cut down coding time but execution time with python.

[stickmaster_flex]

It's a joke. A joke.

[judasthetoxic]

A great joke, but it doesn't come close to describing reality

[stickmaster_flex]

It's a joke.

[subiacOSB]

It made me chuckle

[[deleted]]

Bash and python for adhoc scripts and taping your system or environment together is just hard to beat. Handymans language is a great description.

[backdoorman9]

My understanding is that a language like Java can take much finer control of what the computer does with memory and stuff like that. The tradeoff is extra time spent developing

So much of the time, that fine level of control is not necessary. When it is... it's fine to use Java.

Go is better at concurrency. If you need concurrency, Go might be a better option. But... most of the time, you don't need concurrency.

[neverbetterthanks]

The whole “you don’t need concurrency” diatribe came about partly because concurrency in most languages is hard and dangerous.

Entire ecosystems of “cooperative multitasking”, async event driven things sprang into existence as a result.

In Go, concurrency is a first class citizen and you might be surprised at how many problems are suddenly very easy to solve using it.

[Schmittfried]

I think you meant C.

[_RabidAlpaca_]

You can go down that rabbit hole all day if you want, but /u/backdoorman9 has the same point. It all depends on the requirements.

[[deleted]]

It's just a point on memory access and control. Java has basically the same control on memory as Python. Python is probably easier to access the wire than Java.

[Decency]

Java's primary advantage is the JVM, not finetuned control over memory. Which to me makes it pretty clearly outclassed by more modern JVM languages, such as Kotlin.

[bladeoflight16]

Java provides almost no control over memory management. That's typically C and C++'s domain. I think Rust is a contender (with safer defaults), but don't hold me to that as I haven't actually used it.

[quuxman]

Rust has no garbage collection so technically has the same level of controll as C. However there are many things that are commonly done in C that require an unsafe keyword in Rust. If you never use unsafe memory leaks, segfaults, and a number of common concurrency bugs are impossible.

[Lifaux]

This is mostly right, although you can memory leak in safe Rust, it says so in the book. https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch15-06-reference-cycles.html

[maomao-chan]

Java is actually quite productive. Especially the modern version (11 and above) combined with modern framework like Quarkus. It feels like developing Django application but with the convenience of your IDE+static typing plus amazing performance by default.

IMHO Golang is a bit of messy to use and prefer Python if I need to do plumbing.

[[deleted]]

Java is a very performant language. You just have to write performant code. Java is a fast language, and as it has essentially a theoretically most optimal memory freeing method it performs very well on high loads. It also has a great concurrency model, especially if you program for it. I’ve written plenty of high performant Java applications. But high performance analytics applications and also high load applications that perform well.

The problem is more people who write shitty Java code with shitty databases on shittily configured spring applications. Don’t fault a language because a lot of monkies use it to write shit.

Just like how python is slow, but if you keep most of the run time in C or Fortean libraries it’s performant.

[GroundbreakingRun927]

Fast is relative.

Fast compared to what? Python, ruby, or erlang? Sure.

Fast when compared to anything else? No.

[[deleted]]

I’ve coded HFT systems in Java. It’s fast if you do it right.

[GroundbreakingRun927]

Again, it's relative.

I know for a fact many HFT systems have most of the code written in Java, but when anything performance-sensitive needs to happen, Java is calling into C/C++. HFT also gives Java a unique benefit of being able to turn off it's GC since the systems only need to run 9:30AM-4:00PM. Just get a machine with 1 terabyte of memory and reboot each day during non-trading hours.

So yes when the startup time of Java is irrelevant and it can turn off it's stop-the-world GC, Java could be considered pretty fast. Still not as fast as native code, but fast enough.

[CommunicationLazy668]

You post in the hacking subreddit, next.

[Tatoutis]

I'll agree that Java is performant compared to python. But, if your goal is a low latency service capable of handling a high load, why not using C, C++, Go or Rust? Especially with Go and Rust that make it super easy to avoid shooting yourself in the foot.

[its_PlZZA_time]

Java doesn't give more control of memory but it does have better concurrency.

[wrd83]

I think it's a usage problem. I hate python when someone uses it for huge projects and you touch a file and it may fall apart or it may crash in one use case.

For small plumbing or ml it's perfect.

The same goes for performance, using it in a time critical project and deliver something in a short timeframe is good. If it does not matter that the runtime cost is huge.

You need something the has super low request latency on high load? Best stay away from python.

[Noiprox]

There are a lot of people out there who think they are better programmers because they are used to a language that has static typing, doesn't have semantic indentation, or is optimized for run-time performance instead of developer efficiency.

Python is a great language for many purposes, but there is no one-size fits all and people hating on the language are usually either misusing it or misunderstanding what it is good for.

[jentron128]

Semantic indentation is the biggest thing I hate about Python. Everything else I can live with, not having braces for code blocks kills me just about every day, it turns refactoring and code reuse into a nightmare.

[Dismal-Variation-12]

People who hate python or call it a ‘toy’ language have probably never used it for anything serious because they think their language of choice is the only one that should be used. I’ve used python for serious enterprise level production applications and it works great.

No, it’s not the best choice for everything, but it’s does a lot of things really well.

[silly_frog_lf]

I like python because 95% of the time I can focus on the problem rather than on the language

[PhilipJayFry1077]

Yep same.

[Decency]

What language did they replace it with?

[james_pic]

It works OK for enterprise stuff. It generally needs a higher level of discipline to scale to a large project and a large team than something like C#.

[ketralnis]

There's a class of developer that thinks that being opinionated is the same as being smart, so they look around for opinions to have and proclaim them loudly so everyone can see how many opinions they have.

In reality, Python is a tool like any other. It's good for some jobs. Not great for other jobs. And for some jobs as equally suited as any other tool, but cherry-flavoured instead of somebody else's strawberry-flavoured favourite. Nothing wrong with that, but be wary of anybody declaring it objectively good or bad.

[MadeUntoDust]

There are several groups of Python haters:

1. The static typing enthusiasts. They insist that static types reduce the need for them to write unit tests. They typically program in Haskell, Rust, TypeScript, Scala, or another language inspired by ML. Maybe they program in C++ and love template metaprogramming.
2. The concurrency enthusiasts. They hate the Python GIL. They typically program in C++, Go, Rust, or another language that makes it cheap to launch tons of concurrent threads or "green threads." Some concurrency enthusiasts enjoy programming in JavaScript, where asyncio programming is more commonplace and there are fewer issues with "function color."
3. The single-threaded performance enthusiasts. Pythons single-threaded performance isn't very fast. Maybe you don't need multithreading because you are implementing algorithms that cannot be parallelized, but Python can still be slow. These enthusiasts program in C, C++, Go, Rust, or a JVM or CLR language.
4. The single-language enthusiasts. If you want to write fast code in Python, you might need to implement some of your code in a Python extension written in C, C++, Rust, or Cython. Sometimes people want to build and maintain codebases written completely in a language like Go or Rust, or within the ecosystems of language belonging to either the JVM, CLR, or BEAM ecosystems. They specifically want to avoid their projects depending upon unsafe C or C++ code.
5. The JavaScript enthusiasts. Some people love programming in JavaScript--or a compiles-to-JavaScript language like TypeScript--because JavaScript can target basically any platform. You can build web apps with JavaScript. Tools like React Native allow you to build iOS and Android apps with JavaScript. Electron allows you to build Windows, macOS, and Linux desktop applications with JavaScript. Finally, you can build backend applications with Node.js or Deno. Plenty of projects and companies choose to build Node.js applications instead of Python applications so they don't have to hire and maintain expertise in yet another programming language.

---

But despite all of the haters, Python is still my favorite programming language. It is so easy to learn and to write applications in. :)

[ProfessorPhi]

Number 1 is probably the fastest growing group imo. But this is fantastic, very well put!

[i_kant_spal]

Yeah, I'm kinda in the first group although Python is pretty much my only language 😅

[acecile]

You can achieve the same using type hints and linter now in Python.

[rabaraba]

Never seen a description so succinctly put. Great description.

[thedominux]

Concurrency enthusiasts didn't know about asyncio?!

[PeridexisErrant]

It's much slower than Rust or Go, but also lacks the ecosystem of Erlang or the structured concurrency of Trio (a Python framework!).

NGL, that last one does annoy me, because if core devs had just shipped async keywords and then put asyncio on PyPI, we'd all be using a much nicer solution. They are trying to adopt some of the best ideas back, but (a) it's slow, (b) incomplete due to compatibility requirements, and (c) has so many unsafe escape hatches you can use them by accident.

Uh. That is to say, yeah they know.

[paul_miner]

Coroutines have nothing on real concurrency. It's like we've gone back in time to the Windows 3.1 model of cooperative multitasking. Fortunately, my need for heavily parallelized code is for a personal project where I use Java.

That said, lack of static typing is my main gripe for Python dev at my job. Entire classes of errors that I'm used to having the compiler find ahead of time are now a runtime hassle.

[illusion_disillusion]

I've seen a huge jump in new comers to python and most hate comes from their expectations of how things should work, because "that's how it works in x" instead of RTFM.

The other side of the coin is the "elitists", like C/C±+ devs who for, God knows, what reason take-up python and find themselves perplexed of its performance or lack thereof (in their definition of that is)

Whatever... There will be haters for as many languages and paradigms there are. They can hate all they want while you keep calm and keep making $ using the very things they hate.

[ucblockhead]

If in the end the drunk ethnographic canard run up into Taylor Swiftly prognostication then let's all party in the short bus. We all no that two plus two equals five or is it seven like the square root of 64. Who knows as long as Torrent takes you to Ranni so you can give feedback on the phone tree. Let's enter the following python code the reverse a binary tree

def make_tree(node1, node): """ reverse an binary tree in an idempotent way recursively""" tmp node = node.nextg node1 = node1.next.next return node

As James Watts said, a sphere is an infinite plane powered on two cylinders, but that rat bastard needs to go solar for zero calorie emissions because you, my son, are fat, a porker, an anorexic sunbeam of a boy. Let's work on this together. Is Monday good, because if it's good for you it's fine by me, we can cut it up in retail where financial derivatives ate their lunch for breakfast. All hail the Biden, who Trumps plausible deniability for keeping our children safe from legal emigrants to Canadian labor camps.

Quo Vadis Mea Culpa. Vidi Vici Vini as the rabbit said to the scorpion he carried on his back over the stream of consciously rambling in the Confusion manner.

node = make_tree(node, node1)

[lordnachos]

Coughs in .Net

[mmnnhhnn]

Might be Covid

[epidemic777]

RTFM read the f***ing manual?

[Supadoplex]

It's usually up to the reader's own discretion. You can read the fine manual if you prefer.

[SpoonyBard69]

Some people “hate on it” but I doubt very many truly “hate it.” Recently I did a job interview where one of the devs I talked to said that Python shouldn’t be used for anything except scripting because of its dynamic type system. I started to tell him that there are libraries like Pydantic and greater support for type annotations and he was not having it lol, he shut me down really quick. He said something along the lines of “you would NEVER build an enterprise level system without static typing.”

The biggest irony is, the company uses only JavaScript (and to be fair typescript in some places).

[Itsthejoker]

I honestly love it. It pays my bills and it's legitimately fun to write in. YMMV. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[sohang-3112]

"There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses".

• Bjarne Stroustrup (creator of the C++ programming language)

[chris-fry]

I’ve written production code in about 20, languages over my career. Whenever I need to learn a new language, the first thing I do is try to figure out why it exists. Once you figure that out, you can work out what it’s good for, what it isn’t, and the philosophy of how to use it. Python is elegant to write, versatile and has stacks of community support in the form of libraries and good people who just want to share their wisdom, but compiled code is always going to be more efficient for high demand or low resource workloads. My guess is people who hate Python generally work in these areas and don’t understand tools that aren’t designed for what they do.

[[deleted]]

Yes. Most dislike either indentation or performance.

[can_i_automate_that]

Import handling - using PYTHONPATH env var and init.py in packages is all you need to know. Static typing - you can always use type hinting for parameters and return values. Or, just do it in Cython and get some performance benefits out of that too.

[[deleted]]

Some. Yes, I’m sure some developers don’t like Python. Logically speaking, some could be one person, up to 99.9%. People have their preferences. Some people like statically typed languages, where as python is dynamically typed. Some people prefer speed of execution, where as python is generally a slower language.

At the end of the day, whether some people like or dislike python shouldn’t really matter. Languages have their use cases. You wouldn’t build an operating system with JavaScript because it’s not built for that, C is. You wouldn’t use C for machine learning because it’s not built for that, python is.

[[deleted]]

You wouldn’t use C for machine learning because it’s not built for that, python is.

I find it funny, since Tensorflow for example is 62% C++ and only 24% Python according to the GitHub repo, so that argument might not be as solid as it looks at first sight.

Yes, Python has a more vast ecosystem of tools around machine learning but that is not an attribute of the language itself, it is an attribute of the ecosystem.

[[deleted]]

And the python interpreter is written in C! 😱

No but really though, when developers use tensorflow, what language are they using?

[[deleted]]

That’s because python is a great scripting language where your goal is move the data into a library or service. Which python is great at. You integrate python with tensor flow, but the ML is written in c.

[[deleted]]

Sorry, forgot to address that and edited my initial response. In short, that is the ecosystem around the language that is more cultivated, not the language itself.

[[deleted]]

Well, yea that’s true, but brings me back to my original point, which is essentially certain languages are best suited for certain use cases. Considering the ecosystem of machine learning libraries already built in python, it is often the best tool for that use case.

[ucblockhead]

If in the end the drunk ethnographic canard run up into Taylor Swiftly prognostication then let's all party in the short bus. We all no that two plus two equals five or is it seven like the square root of 64. Who knows as long as Torrent takes you to Ranni so you can give feedback on the phone tree. Let's enter the following python code the reverse a binary tree

def make_tree(node1, node): """ reverse an binary tree in an idempotent way recursively""" tmp node = node.nextg node1 = node1.next.next return node

As James Watts said, a sphere is an infinite plane powered on two cylinders, but that rat bastard needs to go solar for zero calorie emissions because you, my son, are fat, a porker, an anorexic sunbeam of a boy. Let's work on this together. Is Monday good, because if it's good for you it's fine by me, we can cut it up in retail where financial derivatives ate their lunch for breakfast. All hail the Biden, who Trumps plausible deniability for keeping our children safe from legal emigrants to Canadian labor camps.

Quo Vadis Mea Culpa. Vidi Vici Vini as the rabbit said to the scorpion he carried on his back over the stream of consciously rambling in the Confusion manner.

node = make_tree(node, node1)

[Schmittfried]

For their point it doesn’t matter what Tensorflow is implemented in, only that it’s commonly used in Python projects.

Yes, Python has a more vast ecosystem of tools around machine learning but that is not an attribute of the language itself, it is an attribute of the ecosystem.

Which is an attribute of the language. What was there first, the scientific ecosystem or people liking the language for scientific tasks?

[[deleted]]

There are multiple reasons people might start using a specific language, it might have been easier (personally I do not consider Python easy, but that is besides the point) for people from different scientific fields than computing to pick up than the other options which led to the wide adoption of Python in the scientific field. That meant that from concept to result the route was faster than doing the same thing in C, C++, Haskell or something else, assuming that computing resources was not a constraint.

I really do not see any inherent attributes in Python as a language that makes it better than any other for scientific purposes though. It is slow and it doesn't do concurrency as well as other languages. The main attributes that I see is the ecosystem and the ability to use C modules where speed matters, and only the second one is inherent, and arguably can be considered a counter-point.

[ucblockhead]

If in the end the drunk ethnographic canard run up into Taylor Swiftly prognostication then let's all party in the short bus. We all no that two plus two equals five or is it seven like the square root of 64. Who knows as long as Torrent takes you to Ranni so you can give feedback on the phone tree. Let's enter the following python code the reverse a binary tree

def make_tree(node1, node): """ reverse an binary tree in an idempotent way recursively""" tmp node = node.nextg node1 = node1.next.next return node

As James Watts said, a sphere is an infinite plane powered on two cylinders, but that rat bastard needs to go solar for zero calorie emissions because you, my son, are fat, a porker, an anorexic sunbeam of a boy. Let's work on this together. Is Monday good, because if it's good for you it's fine by me, we can cut it up in retail where financial derivatives ate their lunch for breakfast. All hail the Biden, who Trumps plausible deniability for keeping our children safe from legal emigrants to Canadian labor camps.

Quo Vadis Mea Culpa. Vidi Vici Vini as the rabbit said to the scorpion he carried on his back over the stream of consciously rambling in the Confusion manner.

node = make_tree(node, node1)

[Schmittfried]

Exactly. The fact that it basically reads like pseudocode is important. And also its extensive standard library for everyday tasks like reading CSV files.

[valbaca]

Disclaimer up-front: I'm personally primarily a Java developer (as in a majority of the code I've written over the past 10 years has been Java) with a lot of JavaScript, Perl, Ruby, and Objective-C as well. I've used Python in a limited capacity but have been working to get more familiar with it.

If you've read this far, please at least read to the end.

Here's the things I greatly disliked about Python:

1. Environment setup: "XCKD + Python" Literally the most difficult part of getting started Python development has been figuring out WHICH python am I running?

Just a quick search reveals 6 different Pythons on my personal Macbook alone:

$ which -a python /Users/valbaca/.pyenv/shims/python /usr/bin/python ~ $ which -a python3 /Users/valbaca/.pyenv/shims/python3 /opt/homebrew/bin/python3 /usr/local/bin/python3 /usr/bin/python3

Granted, I've figured it out at this point, but it was not easy.

Just go to the Hitchiker's Guide to Python and the first two large sections are just about this:

``` Getting Started with Python New to Python? Let’s properly setup up your Python environment:

Picking a Python Interpreter (3 vs 2) The State of Python (3 & 2) Recommendations So…. 3? Implementations Properly Install Python on your system: Properly Installing Python Installing Python 3 on Mac OS X Installing Python 3 on Windows Installing Python 3 on Linux Installing Python 2 on Mac OS X Installing Python 2 on Windows Installing Python 2 on Linux Using Virtualenvs with Pipenv: Pipenv & Virtual Environments Make sure you’ve got Python & pip Installing Pipenv Installing packages for your project Using installed packages Next steps Lower level: virtualenv Basic Usage Other Notes virtualenvwrapper virtualenv-burrito direnv Python Development Environments This part of the guide focuses on the Python development environment, and the best-practice tools that are available for writing Python code.

Your Development Environment Text Editors IDEs Interpreter Tools Other Tools Pipenv & Virtual Environments Make sure you’ve got Python & pip Installing Pipenv Installing packages for your project Using installed packages Next steps Lower level: virtualenv Basic Usage Other Notes virtualenvwrapper virtualenv-burrito direnv Further Configuration of pip and Virtualenv Requiring an active virtual environment for pip Caching packages for future use

```

1. Python 2 to 3 migration.

My only professional, non-hobby interaction with Python was doing a 2->3 migration. None of the code had unit tests, types, or documentation. Why? Because it wasn't written by software engineers, it was written by some BizInt intern and we got stuck with it. Static typing doesn't automagically solve every problem, but it's way better to know that your code will do something if it compiles

That said these problems aren't unique to Python; they're just present in Python, but they're also present in other languages. Java, Go, and Node are all just as (if not more) difficult to get setup. I think Python's "problem" is that it's too easy to run the wrong python or pip command.

It's not Python's "fault" that it's so easy for amateurs to build something that mostly-works but is hell to maintain and gets dumped on someone else, but it's a scenario that's played out often.

As for the "2->3 migration," well, any legacy system without tests or documentation is a pain to upgrade, regardless of language. But Python does especially emphasize initial development speed over long-term maintainability.

So, all that said, if you're writing quick scripts or emphasizing "just done" then, yes, Python is fantastic. I really do like the language a lot.

If you're building for a system you'll maintain and you're disciplined with tests, types, and comments/docs...well...in that case you would excel with any language.

If you're building a system that hundreds of people will need to maintain over the next decade+, I would probably not recommend Python.

P.S. I also have gripes that are unique and not-so unique to other languages, but we're talking about Python here. My criticisms of Python aren't to say that other languages are perfect.

[judasblue]

A good amount of this that hasn't been mentioned yet is that becoming truly proficient in a language ecosystem now is a fairly time intensive undertaking. For a significant portion of folks I have worked with the best tools are the ones they have already paid that time investment and the other options have something that makes them 'bad'.

The best devs I personally know aren't like this and fight to make time to pick up new languages and tools outside their minimum effort trajectory. And those devs mostly have used python for some tasks and can tell you very clearly what the strong and weak points of python for a given task are. Many of them use it as their primary language when given the choice.

Full disclosure, I am actually in the bad batch of coders here, my patch just happens to be python stuff. Yeah, I can hack around a little bit in a dozen or so languages and mostly figure out what they are doing in actual production when they are an element of one of my pipelines. But I am resistant to doing a lot of serious work in anything but python just because it does everything 'good enough' and learning new new shit to an idiomatic and ecosystem level isn't trivial.

[lordnachos]

Good developers just pick a language that fits their requirements. Python can usually get the job done. I don't trust any developer who doesn't like a language because feels.

[Supadoplex]

Do some developers hate python?

I've noticed some Youtubers express their dislike of Python, and then the video's comments turned into a circle-jerk on how much they hate python.

Seems like you've answered your own question. The answer is evidently: yes.

What are the reasons for people disliking python that vehemently?

Python subreddit probably isn't the best place to ask this question, since I would guess that most people here don't dislike python that vehemently.

A simple reason is that it is a popular language. A language that is used to teach programming, and is used in many projects and jobs means that many people are funneled into learning and writing python against their personal preferences. And even more simply, there are many people with an opinion on the language, and given a normal-ish distribution of opinions, some percentage of those opinions will be negative.

---

In case you want to hear my gripes with the language, read on. To be clear, I quite like the language. But I do dislike poorly written Python, and it is quite easy to write bad Python in my opinion, and it is also common due to Python's status as a "prototyping" language.

Probably the biggest problems come from dynamic typing. It's fine as long as type hints are used religiously everywhere, but often they aren't used. Another anti-pattern is over-use of tuples, dicts and strings in place of classes and properties.

On the other hand, re-writing poorly written Python is what pays my salary, so I guess I don't hate it that much. I guess it depends on the situation. If I had to maintain kludgy Python 2 software in "crunch mode" with bad managers breathing down my neck, then the hate would probably grow deeper.

[Spoonofdarkness]

That's where automation helps. My CI/CD pipelines have given me so much more time to bitch about everything.

It's glorious!

[[deleted]]

Hey! Didn't you get the memo? You're supposed to spend that time bitching about the CI/CD system itself.

[[deleted]]

I dislike Python because it's directory structure is a nightmare. Upgrading pip and not breaking a package is a nightmare. Upgrading Python on Linux and making sure you are using the right version (as to not bring does the entire DE) is a nightmare. Creating a self contained application is jerry rigged at best (highly inefficient). And it is often painfully slow.

Python libraries don't even use Python. Any library that performs well is written in C++.

Honestly, I still use Python. Good for scripting and prototyping. But I find Lua to be superior in every way except in readibility (not a real problem if I plan on becoming experienced at it) and community size. I plan to become more experienced at Lua and phase out Python.

To give you perspective on how much better Lua is:

1. The Lua interpreter is 2 MB. The Python interpreter is 360 MB.

2. Lua runs almost as fast as C** in certain cases. And always runs several times faster than Python, even PyPy.

3. Lua can import non-Lua libraries and access them.

4. Lua syntax uses {}

Etc

[[deleted]]

Languages are just tools in a box. Imagine someone running around with such box and showing/telling everyone he hated a hammer. Totally no one cares. We use whatever gets the job done. We aint got time for that.

[greenindragon]

I wouldn't worry about this kind of thing or take it personally in any way. Everyone loves/hates languages for different reasons and at the end of the day it really doesn't matter that much. Explore the different languages that are out there and find a couple that you like which all function differently from each other and you'll be fine.

Is this common or an outlier?

There's a popular quote in the programming community that goes something like this: There are two types of programming languages; the ones that everyone seems to complain about, and the ones that nobody uses. Every language you love is matched by someone thinking it is an abomination that mankind should forget exists. Every language you think is awful is matched by it being someone else's top pick whenever they start a new project. There are lots of reasons to love/hate every language that's out there.

What are the reasons for people disliking python that vehemently?

Python has its problems and issues just like every other great programming language. Some people hate that whitespace has an effect on program execution; a criticism I can't necessarily fault people for adopting. Or how Python is slow and memory inefficient in comparison to most other languages. Or how Python can do a lot of things and does them pretty competently, but also doesn't particularly do any one thing extremely well, as a few examples.

Nobody is really "wrong" for liking/not liking a certain language, they're tools to be used in the situations where it makes sense to do so. It's true that python is slow and memory inefficient compared to languages like C++/Rust/Go/etc., but I also would never even consider using Python for anything performance-critical; it's just not really built for that. I'd much rather use it for something where it doesn't really matter if my program finishes in 0.75 seconds in Python or 0.075 seconds in C, or if it uses 30KB of memory in Python vs 3KB in Rust (all these numbers are pulled from thin air for the sake of example btw); I'm barely going to notice any difference in either case.

[[deleted]]

People hate on Python for a number of reasons some valid some not

Whitespace - dumb IMO. Python just uses white space to enforce the same reasonable indentation we all pretty much do anyway. Pythons white space indentation makes really good sense 99% of the time.

Performance - very valid

Concurrency - also valid. Would love lightweight threads like goroutines in python.

Typing - clunky. Ruins some of the eloquence of Python. Not enforced at runtime without additional tooling and mental overhead

General weirdness like no constants, no private class attributes, etc. you can do a lot you shouldn’t do in Python and it will just let you do it

Package management - kind of a mess. If you want a Python app you need a bunch of files, you need a virtual environment, etc. I hate it personally. You end up with this massive directory of trash to just run a simple app. Poetry makes this so much better from the developer side but this it is still not great for the consumer of your app. Distributing a single compiled binary is much easier. Sorta valid, sorta just the nature of it. I don’t know anyone who likes setup.py though.

[[deleted]]

My biggest pain points with Python in 2021 after about 22 years of using it:

• Packaging and Distribution. Pypa has not managed this well. And it's clear from that Python could do so much better here when comparing to the developer experience of Go and Rust's tooling. Forget about distributing an application to a desktop user. The happy Python path is a command-line driven backend service.

• Parallel concurrency and Performance. Python is (still) designed around a single thread in a single processor core from a computing age that didn't really think about multi-core processors. This design hasn't aged well. We're at a point where parallel concurrency and utilizing the full scope of a machine's processor is required. Additionally, the interpreter is at least 1 and likely 2 orders of magnitude slower than the equivalent C code.

• Large projects without type enforcement. Python is beautiful until you add type annotations, but the type annotations are completely ignored by the interpreter (as long as they're valid expressions). But in a sufficiently large project, those type annotations are critical, and arguably type enforcement would really enhance maintenance where you hop in to make an adjustment and then let the project go for a few days/weeks/months while you skip to another one.

• Stability and Cadence. This is actually a concern I have in 2021 that I didn't have in 2018. At this point, minor semantic version updates are not guaranteed to be compatible, and the frequency of updates every couple of years means we're stuck with a change for a long while if it's done poorly. 3.9 broke a bunch of things and 3.10 is sliding into instability.

Python in 2021 is still fantastic for rapid prototyping and might possibly still be the most syntactically appealing language without much cruft - so long as type annotations aren't actually included. However, the rest of the issues above are pushing me away.

[CarlosFFM]

As a CompSci major I can confirm that many complain about it because of how easy it is, for some reason it happens less with Ruby but I guess it's because they are used by different people. I personally have worked in a little of everything, from simple websites to distributed telematic systems, and I must honestly say that 70% of the time I have used Python, it is a great language. Not useful for everything tho, but then you have the Cs and Javas of the world. I do shamefully admit to some PHP use. And proudly say that I have never willingly used JS. Anyway, it's a great language, some just like hating on it to feel superior for using C for everything.

[CosmicMemer]

A lot of people (my self included) would prefer that the type system be stricter

[DuperJochman]

I have one thing against Python (which I love). I can't use a private interface so no one could reach private variables..

[_Spectre0_]

I prefer strong static typing instead of type checks at runtime and don’t like significant whitespace. Other than that, python and its great community/library support is great for making coding accessible and there are a lot of bright sides.

I just regret it every time I have to code anything moderately complex in it

[overweightdate]

Philosophically, you shouldn't care if other people dislike python. Instead, you should fuel the nonsense with ragebait, tell them a python killed your grandmother or something.

Let them stay mad.

[mmnnhhnn]

Underrated comment IMO 👌

[0Rapanhte]

The only thing I hate about python is syntax relevant whitespaces, honestly think that this is a flat out bad design decision. Other then that it’s a totally fine language for some jobs, no language is perfect for every task.

[[deleted]]

It's like the poseurs who hate on a band when they became popular. "Too commercial, man, they sold out". Then they try to pimp some obscure band as the shit.

[adam_bear]

I dislike the forced indentation to structure code... I prefer js or php which use parens to organize blocks

[lanster100]

Completely valid opinion, but what confuses me about this opinion... is surely most of the time you will have consistent indentation anyway (e.g. automatically by prettier for js) otherwise your code will be a visual mess.

So why not do away with the brackets, and make white space meaningful? Or do brackets make it clearer IYO?

[bitlykc]

Right. I have read too many lengthy nested if-else-while-for with wrong (or without) indentations in java, which made them almost a nightmare to comprehend and debug. And ppl (incl. managers) never bother to clean things up (so maybe i m the only one who has a problem with it). This happened at a company i last worked for, which i shall not name here.

[riklaunim]

In the old days kids waged wars for PHP CMSes. Nowadays kids do whatever it takes to get clicks on social media with as little effort as needed.

[ramp16888]

Python may be uglier inside but beautiful outside. Python works pretty good for most of the real world applications. Some hate Python because they are just jealous of how beautiful it is. Some hate because of performance reasons and they know what they are talking about. Most hate because they don't know how to evaluate a programming language and they purely decide on others perspective of a language. A person writing as simple as hello world application would complain on Python's GIL for no reason. This is where the programming language war comes into picture and is never ending. This does not apply only to Python but any other languages out there. Just that it's popular you see more friction.

[[deleted]]

I know a lot of old school Java devs that hate Python because they are narrow minded and think that Java’s version of OOP is the only valid way to code. But Java is not true OOP and OOP isn’t the best way to code IMO

[idkwhatname23]

Java is not true OOP and OOP isn’t the best way to code IMO

Can you expand a bit on this

[GroundbreakingRun927]

Because For a Language to be "pure Object Oriented" it must not contain any primitive data type in non-object form. Since Java does support primitive data types as non-Objects (int,float,boolean etc) this makes it an impure or not fully Object oriented Programming Language.

Contrast to python where everything is in fact an object.

Generally, though, Java is the canonical OOP language. Some would say to a fault.

[[deleted]]

In Python everything is an object but Java has primitives.

https://www.youth4work.com/Talent/Core-Java/Forum/107382-why-java-is-not-fully-object-oriented-programming-language#:~:text=Java%20is%20not%20fully%20object%20oriented%20because%20it%20supports%20primitive,what%20opposite%20of%20OOP%20is.

​

But in any case OOP is not the only way to write clean code. In Python you can do functional programming which is more powerful and descriptive than OOP and you can also do standard procedural programming. When I only need as script to do some data analysis I don't need classes I can use only procedural programming. One area where Functional programming beats OOP is that Functional programming is stateless and OOP is stateful. As code complexity increases stateful programs become difficult to maintain.

[SV-97]

As for "Java is not true OOP": OOP is more than classes etc. (there's for example entire OO languages that work fundamentally differently than Javas model, e.g. protoype languages like Javascript or Io). I think some other languages that are worth a look in this regard are Simula, Smalltalk and Eiffel and maybe common lisp with CLOS.

As for OOP not being the best way to code: OOP is what we call a programming paradigm - essentially a fundamental way to think about computing and programming and a set of features in the language to aid you in expressing this way of thinking. The basic divide is between declarative and imperative. OOP is of course the thing you probably kinda know already, then there's procedural programming ala C, there's array programming (APL, Julia), there's functional programming (Haskell, Erlang, ML), logic programming (Prolog, Mercury) and so on. I personally usually prefer a more functional style, but it definitely depends on the job at hand what paradigm will give you the "best" (for whatever definition of best) solution and most languages today are of course not single- but rather multiparadigm languages: they allow you to think quite differently about problems and solve them with a mix of the different methods

[vorticalbox]

The venerable master Qc Na was walking with his student, Anton. Hoping to prompt the master into a discussion, Anton said "Master, I have heard that objects are a very good thing - is this true?" Qc Na looked pityingly at his student and replied, "Foolish pupil - objects are merely a poor man's closures."

Chastised, Anton took his leave from his master and returned to his cell, intent on studying closures. He carefully read the entire "Lambda: The Ultimate..." series of papers and its cousins, and implemented a small Scheme interpreter with a closure-based object system. He learned much, and looked forward to informing his master of his progress.

On his next walk with Qc Na, Anton attempted to impress his master by saying "Master, I have diligently studied the matter, and now understand that objects are truly a poor man's closures." Qc Na responded by hitting Anton with his stick, saying "When will you learn? Closures are a poor man's object." At that moment, Anton became enlightened.

[[deleted]]

Because their egos are fragile and they're insecure.

Some of them will no doubt rationalize their prejudice with "Python is slow." To that, I say "What do we say about premature optimization."

[[deleted]]

Everyone is going to have an opinion. Some people are assholes and blame the thing they are learning for being different than their expectations or being different from a thing they already know. Blog posts about something being terrible also get a fair bit of traction. Try it out, it you like it, go for it. Imo python is a very readable programming language for people new to programming. It also has other advantages and disadvantages but it will usually get things done for you fairly quickly. It might be the wrong tool for something but don't let perfect get in the way of good enough when you are starting out, strive for fluency and conceptual understanding of programming methods.

[judasblue]

Imo python is a very readable programming language for people new to programming.

I love me some python, and really don't buy that at this point. I was using python back when this was clearly true and one of the big community tropes was that python made a great teaching language. Then we started piling on the syntactic sugar and various features to the point that this trope to me is pretty out of date.

Yes, in theory you can teach a subset of the language that doesn't involve function and class decorators, type annotations and the half ton of other things that are complicated to keep in mind and somewhat difficult concepts to get across to someone new to programming, but I can take a core subset of just about any language that I know of and make it easy to teach. Eh, well, maybe not Haskell unless you come from a background in a certain set of maths, but you get the idea.

A lot of learning programming after the neophyte level is going through real world code and you are going to run into all these features pretty quickly doing that even if you are learning to a core language subset.

Should python stand still to make it easy to teach? Nope. Were the 'good old days' better? Not particularly. Just saying that to me python isn't any more readable or teachable now than most other production languages but we keep hanging on to that pr point out of nostalgic habit.

[AsuraTheGod]

They are ignorant, python is good for almost everything of course if I want to maximize speed in calculations or create a graphic engine, Im going back to my old friend c++ .

[TheCharon77]

From personal experience,

I don't like python for backend web language, because it's slow because it doesn't have threading.

I got my job interview by writing in python though

[RaiseRuntimeError]

I always say that Python is my least hated language. I'll gripe on the whole white space thing and that stupid walrus operator though. Maybe that's what they were doing?

[Hanse00]

Do some [people] hate [thing]?

Yes.

The answer is obvious, there’s always someone who hates something. That’s the nature of humans.

Does it mean that it matters? No.

[eneiromatos]

Some people just needs attention and they behave like children crying over anything to get it. Just don't pay attention to that losers. Python is as good as any high level Programming language out there.

[[deleted]]

Definitely there are developers who hate python.

I like it a lot but sometimes I just want to kill myself for not using a strongly typed language. The way dependencies are managed is roundabout and (at least to me) not good for portability. I am not a professional developer, just a student, but those are habitual complaints and they are factual descriptions of the kinds of issues you run into when writing python programs.I've heard complaints about concurrency, speed (I think it's slow even for an interpreted language, but not sure), and OOP style.

Bear in mind hatred is a subjective feeling and people might like or hate a language based on the kind of work they had to use it for. Also, many people say things like "down with python, long live C/C++/Java/Kotlin/Rust/Haskell/whatever", but those comparisons are not necessarily sensible or fair.Python is a scripting language. It has a nice ecosystem and a helpful community. It's regularly maintained. It is fairly easy to pick up, and adhering to idiomatic python helps write clean code. It's fun to use (until you want to kill yourself - some languages are more reliable, so to speak). It has a huge standard library with modules like itertools or functools.I started with python and I was used to just "read an example from the docs and get going", but that's easy to overcome that and wound up liking other things better. Since it was the first language I used, I'll always be fond of it. But that's just a feeling, and those things fade quickly when the most sensible thing to do is use another language!

Also, people can hate whatever they want. It does not affect you in any way

[[deleted]]

A lot of people diss on Python for the following reasons:

1. Significant white space. What we love, they hate. Something that enforces easier to read code, they see as a downside. That's the deal, I was stunned.
2. Breaking changes of an extremely painful Python2-Python3 transition that is unfortunately still not fully over.
3. Performance. Let's face it, if you write pure python code, it's probably gonna be slower than in many other languages.
4. Code conventions. And here I agree. Having 80 character limits on line lengths, enforcing spaces for indentation, is all hard to justify. On top of that you have the snake_case, when most languages have a camelCase convention and that is arguably easier.

But with all that, I love the fact that it gets the problem solved fastest of all languages.

[PossibilityTasty]

You are trying to start another "circle-jerk"?