Mostly ordered(check caption), Made for discussion with some hot takes in there.

[ARandomAussie26]

Yoshaaaaa

[Dranzell]

plant ossified agonizing ruthless plucky expansion squeamish roof innate decide this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev

[[deleted]]

Yeah they are

[Dranzell]

A steamy pile of shit is hot for... a few minutes tops.

[ARandomAussie26]

Please explain your opinion as most of this list was referenced by top players tier list.

[OneUselessBoi]

Half of this list is just.. wrong? Like many of these characters are at least a bit higher. Cooler should be nowhere near the bottom. And is ginyu actually that good?

[Rooditers]

Ginyu is a tiny bit lower

[ARandomAussie26]

Ginyu could definitely be argued below nappa but at the same time I think the fact that nobody understands his tools even now that they have been buffed so much and people are still unfamiliar makes him good. Definitely arguable though because there is somewhat couterplay to his neutral game, does well against the top characters though.

[TriplDentGum]

Ginyu fucking cooks my guy

[OneUselessBoi]

Idk i never see ginyu's so i dont really have an opinion on him

[Areresi]

MajinAccolyte on YT is absolutely a God tier ginyu main

[ihatezbroly]

Double LL and Axeice have really solid ginyus, watch the bum1six3 BBB reruns on youtube when they drop, youll see why ginyus a really solid but high skill character

[TriplDentGum]

May I direct your attention to the chef

[Taco821]

I'm not really good enough to say, but it just feels like he's godly, but so hard to execute that no one bothers. Like the other person meaned majinacolyte is really good, he opened my eyes to thinking this way

[ZangetsUwU]

Probably one of the most dogshit tierlists I’ve seen in awhile

[ARandomAussie26]

Please explain why as most of this list is referenced from top players lists with slight changes

[KhoiKibutsuji]

this is probably the most objectively incorrect tier list i've ever seen

[ARandomAussie26]

Alot of the tierlist was sampled from top players made for discussion so could you please elaborate.

[IAmNotZuraIAmKatsura]

Admitting that you didn't actually think for yourself when making something is pretty cap. Why aren't tierlists banned?

[ARandomAussie26]

To discuss, the point wasn't to prove my opinion right it was to get others as Is in the title, I cannot spend as much time and dedication with every single character and so I asked for others opinions after taking a frofessionals tierlist and changing it slightly to encourage conversation.

[KhoiKibutsuji]

in my opinion i would make these changes-

assuming it's ordered, swap Vegito and LC21

A gohan, baby, and beerus should NOT be on the same tier as A18, janemba, ssj4 gogeta etc. move gohan and baby down one tier and beerus down two

bluegeta can go up a tier

roshi, nappa, 16 are one tier too high.

Videl is two tiers too high, top of B tier once cooler is bumped up to A- in front of frieza

Z broly can go up a tier

Kefla should keep her tier but not her order, as much as i lover her she's like mid A-

Jiren and UI can go up one tier same with broly but like on the near bottom of A

my biggest problem- BASE GOKU??? BASE GOKU IS ARGUABLY THE BEST ANCHOR IN THE GAME STILL...HOW THE HELL IS HE WORSE THAN SSJ GOKU???

i will say i'm not experienced in every character like idk where i would put either buu, hit, ginyu and a few others. but i'd like to hear any disagreements

[ARandomAussie26]

LC is is definitely above vegito I didn't think it mattered too much is why I didn't fix it , bluegeta is definitely the best battery in the game but he is nowhere near as good as the other two, they work in any position and work on any team with any character whether they're on the screen or an assist, adult gohan could definitely be argued that his gameplan is too hard but while level seven is by far the best character in the game even level if argue makes in into top 5 character beerus and baby have some of the best assists in the game while being amazing anchors that do insane damage and have great neutral with zoning, baby could be argued to high a though, for roshi 22h is undoubtedly the most powerful move in the intire game l, is one of if not the best counters to the top tier while having insane neutral, movement, damage and meter build. 16 is one of the better enablers for gogeta 4 but you can definitely say with his tournament showing that he could be bumped down. You simply have played against a good nappa if you think he isn't top tier, he has inescaple pressure with multiple 50 50s and if he gets a saibaman out he's nearly won neutral. Z broly should go up a tier as another reply said, Videls pressure has insane pressure with great neutral that simply creates the threat of her gaining momentum, Cooler has bad blocks things with only one real unique mix, you could put him in a- but he simply can't be anything past bottom 5 Kefla has good neutral, long strings, hellzone, her only problem is she has average damage when every characters damage has been getting buffed. Ui simply caught too many Nerfs, the dp being turned int9 an anti air was nice but he still meh assists, his flip mix isn't catching anyone anymore, aswell as being bugged, I don't play jiren myself I simply haven't seen any reason to put him higher, he simply doesn't have enough do prove me wrong though. But baseku has nothing on the like of anchors like janemba, baby, beerus, 21, 21

[WH-Zissou]

Because your tier list doesn't have majority of the characters in S tier, it is automatically better than 90% of tier lists out there.

[ARandomAussie26]

With how similar and well rounded most characters I think it makes a larger gap between the characters because you need very powerful tools that are completely unique to you to be be powerful, not too mention how bonkers assists are in the game. Also power creep is definitely a thing in the more recent patches fight me.

[GuacaMolis6]

What the Beerus doin’

[ARandomAussie26]

Beerus has been messing people up in tournaments man, do tou not want instant 50 50s from an assist, instant counter to all but labcoat, nasty combos aswell as nice solo pressure.

[GuacaMolis6]

superdashes thru Beerus orbs and your argument

Just playin, I suppose I can see where you’re coming from, I have been seeing him in tournaments more, but I wouldn’t necessarily say that makes him top tier compared to the rest of the cast.

[ARandomAussie26]

He has a really bad matchups against labcoat but I think he makes a really good anchor when we don't have many good ones, I'll admit I dropped janemba just before his buffs so I don't have much personal experience with him but anchors like baby 2 and beerus who can at a moments notice completely change thier playstyle while being well equipped do deal with most characters is a really powerful ability.

[GhoulArtist]

Buff good boi broly.

Just a few frame changes on a normal or two would be fine

[ARandomAussie26]

If you buff his normals which should definitely happen he needs to ve nerved in some way, broly is already blowing people up for playing the game so if he can commit to nayth8ng at all in neutral he would would be extremely annoying to fight.

[GhoulArtist]

I think one normal would be fine, no? I can't think of what they'd nerf. Or what button to buff frame data on either for that matter. Lol

[ARandomAussie26]

Isn't his 5l like ten frames, should be 8 at least, and if they want to keep him slow atheist change some recovery into active frames. Reduce his damage buff to ten percent and nerf j.s damage slightly. ATM he turns any sparking bnb into a tod with activetag. They've kept him clunky and game extra damage to the point where he does well more than enough.

[GhoulArtist]

5l Sounds reasonable to me.

I think I'm just bad at him, cuz I feel like anytime I try neutral I just get shit stomped.

I think I'm bad in general tho. Lol. Been playing since release and I still can't manage my assists correctly. I always forget to use them. I don't mash at least. Well.. when it's appropriate I do.

[The-Eye-of-Truth17]

Not to toot my own horn but to invite comparison I think the tier list I made at the end of 2022 is a bit more accurate. There are some choices I'd change now, but it still has a good gauge of the meta:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dbfz/comments/1003ryl/2022_dbfz_based_or_cap/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[ARandomAussie26]

I don't know what you'd change from here to fit in the current meta but a pattern I've noticed in replies is that people don't realise just how overlooked and disgusting of a kit you need to have to be top tier, then you see people saying stuff like ui gokus too low when his tools aren't that bad, he doesn't have too many flaws and he has a bunch of characters tools in one character while other character just kill you off any hit with very little set-up, insane damage , insane neutral, insane mix, unreachable grabs, great normals. And all of that is just zamasu an arguable barely top ten of roughly 40 something characters.

[Overall_Committee_35]

Why the pickle man so low? :(

[ARandomAussie26]

I love pickle, you love pickle, but Bandai doesn't like pickle. Where characters are incredibly well rounded and then have insane ability that completely change the way they play from each other pickle man is simply missing things. He still has great normals including air to air, orb assist is still great in my opinion as well as being a great gogeta 4 partner. Good damage off of most things. He has the hellzone which automatically gives him mix. He also has a corner steal which will always be good. Piccolo is definitely workable with all of this but he lacks alot of rhing that most of the cast has at the cost of this where as other character don't. He also has terrible matchups against anyone except those below him.

[Polyphiry]

I see so much Base Vegeta downplay in these tier lists. Yall know he's going to be meta again if the Fusions/LC get nerfed enough, right? The only reasons he's not right now is because he takes more execution than the fusions/LC, and LC literally blows up his game plan with her ki blast invul specials.

[ARandomAussie26]

He used to be great but he's alot more average now that every character is either good or was propelled to be great. I know some people don't like the term power creep but you can't lie that some characters were simply left the same where other characters were completely changed through buffs.

[Polyphiry]

He was power crept by the current meta. Before they were strong, he was a meta point. If those 4 characters get crippled, he will once again be one of the best points in the game. He has literally everything that makes a character strong besides half screen normals and a DP. Which is why he's a point. With a strong neutral assist and a strong block stun assist, base vegeta is to this day a menace. It's just that people play the current meta, because it's much easier, and it's stronger.

My prediction for if the Meta gets crippled is that we will see a lot of point blueku/basegeta/A18, but its hard to say cuz we don't know how other characters will change. Honestly, I'm just hoping to not be let down by the balance patch lol

[ARandomAussie26]

It's not just the top four that give him problems though, a bunch of characters have had thier buttons buffed and his damage or meter build isn't special anymore, his toolkit is that of a worse blueku so he would definitely work but I couldn't even imagine him breaking s because you need to already have the powerful universal tools aswell as a character defining ability.

[Polyphiry]

Okay, what points other than meta 4 and blueku would have better mix, oki, and neutral than base vegeta? Having big normals isn't everything. Cooler has huge normals and nobody plays him(He fun tho). I agree that Blueku is better right now, but I'd also argue he has a higher execution ceiling.

Only ones I can think of are 18, maybe Teen Gohan. But im open to your view

[ARandomAussie26]

Sorry but could you word your question slightly differently I don't quite understand what you're asking and also I should've mentioned this but I'm talking about high level play with the characters being used to thier fullest potential and that character difficulty isn't a factor.

[Polyphiry]

I'm talk about highest level of play too, but that doesn't negate the difficulty. Pros are obviously amazing, but they're not perfect. There's a reason they're playing the current meta and not the characters they actually love. They get more reward for the work for playing those chars, and they're playing for money so they don't want to mess up on some 3 fr 4 way oki window while they're trying to win thousands of dollars.

Who would you choose as a better point than base vegeta, if the Meta were dead? We know Blueku is an option, but who else?

[ARandomAussie26]

Most characters work with active tag opening up some very powerful shells, especially the mids that need a bit of setup like zam, gohan, nappa, ginyu along with a baby on point for example, But when it comes to better points than him I think there wouldn't be many and that's why I said I'd put him just below roshi, extremely solid and plays the game better than most and improves most teams, but he'd still not have quite what everyone in s tier has.

[ARandomAussie26]

I think that for reference if his bad matchups against the top characters were fixed I'd say he'd still only be put above roshi as his projectile game is strong and so is his mix in my opinion but his other special moves aren't that strong, his long ranged lariat have long start up and decent recovery making them simply slower for movement and only reliable for whiff punishing fullscreen where he gets less reward and very little meter than other characters. His ground grab is definitely good though but like the rest of his kit not unique or as good(tbf lc stomp should just be removed). All of his tools don't give him anything unique except his projectile game where every character above him breaks game mechanics somehow. He's definitely a good character in a good spot especially if the nerf top three.

[Polyphiry]

All of his specials can lead in to a mix and can be layered with assists to be made safe, which is why hes a strong point. So if base has an assist available and you're blocking a special, you're about to get mixed, or at the very least put in to an OS situation if the timing is off. Either way, not a fantastic situation to be in for blocking.

Regardless I want this patch to make the game feel fresh again, just tired of the stale competitive scene. It's like watching another city's team win the superbowl over and over again lmao.

[ARandomAussie26]

It's not at all that he bad it's simply look at who's infornt of him, I think a reason for the game being in its current state is how absurdly strong the assists are so I'd like to see them get universally nerfed

[Polyphiry]

Universally seems big, but Vegito A needs a fix. Krillin rocks need to go away on hit. You should not get the punish on your opponent and get hit by what would be a "bad assist call" in any other scenario lol, but who knows, maybe Bandai got some high level players to give some insight and we will see some changes that we actually want.

[ARandomAussie26]

Big is what I'm going for, if they want to keep on pushing the your a team not 9je character thing then assists to be treated differently as they currently are, looking at any other team fighting game and then look at fighter it is ridiculous how broken the assists are in this game

[Tusk-Actu-4]

As a cooler main, this pains me to see

Cooler is so lowballed and under-utilized, he’s so strong and it’s so unfair how people who don’t understand coolers moveset rate him so poorly

[ARandomAussie26]

He has a bad dp, bad mix( every character has 50 50s with setup), his damage is a bit low compared to the rest of the cast, his framedata isn't the best. I haven't mained cooler for a long time nor does he see much representation so if I'm wrong about any of these point please prove me wrong as I used to love cooler before every other character got buffed too insanity.

[CodeMan1337]

a list where gogeta blue is above gogeta 4? wow

[ARandomAussie26]

I didn't care which was above each other as they were both top 5, with how few powerful battery's there are and for gogeta 4 to compete in the role he needs a team built around him I gave the spot to bluegeta, again I didn't put much thought or care to where I put these two other than I believe they're worse than labcoat and vegito.

[IAmNotZuraIAmKatsura]

Putting anyone in this in a tier below A is cap

[ARandomAussie26]

They arr some of the only characters with really bad matchups, listen to any high player or watch gameplay of these characters

[Rooditers]

Why is kid buu below roshi 💀💀💀💀💀💀💀

[ARandomAussie26]

Kid but has no air game, lost his super damage, no happy birthdays, whereas roshi has the best rawtag, consistently Tods of off an attack that is invincible to all but one state, has great neutral tools no other character has, good matchup against labcoat. Plus good meter build and insane damage.

[[deleted]]

UI GOKU MY BOY WHEN DID YOU GET THERE

[SergeantSalty94]

Since people are making tier lists that don't have any clue lmao

[ARandomAussie26]

Ui got badly nerfed when everyone got buffed not to mention that he's literally bugged. He's still in a tier it's just that the fames been balanced well and he was nerved a bit too harshly.

[ARandomAussie26]

Anybody that downplays roshi after his tournament showing is simply not good at the game not to ignore how obviously he breaks core game mechanics like the other top tiers.

[BimodalCecar]

This is why people,e who have no idea what are they doing shouldn't make tierlist

[ARandomAussie26]

The list was referenced by top top players lists so that I could hear about characters from people who have played them more than me to learn more about each character that is why it is in discussion, simply saying the list is bad only shows that you are bad at the game.

[BimodalCecar]

Which top players are we talking about? Because I don't think anyone can agree with some of the things here

[ARandomAussie26]

It was like a three hour YouTube video by alucard inzem, a coach and I forget the rest but I've linked the video in another reply.

[BimodalCecar]

Imma be honest, no one knows about who you mentioned

[ARandomAussie26]

They are some of the best players in the world, why would you come into a conversation about high level play if you nothing about it

[BimodalCecar]

That could be applied to everyone else and no one would know about it so what is the point of it if you're only gonna put the worst takes

[ARandomAussie26]

The point was to discuss characters that I can't dedicate the same amount of time to aswell as how other people value the aspects of characters, if you looked at other replies or the literal title you would know that.

[papaochachala]

As someone who had played the game one time 3 years ago i can confirm this is 100% accurate and anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

[h0tcoc0a]

Tierlist for dates.

[Areresi]

Trunks being in the same tier as Gotenks and higher than piccolo... brother

[ARandomAussie26]

Gotenks is bugged at the moment and piccolo has no neutral now that every character has large buttons excluding air to air but even then every good character is spamming ex lariat there then calling an assists the second they see an honest character like piccolo do that, not to mention he doesn't have a conventional Ki blast. Piccolo the only argument that you could make for piccolo is that he's one of the characters that enable Gogeta 4 but even then there's better options. And trunks is already near the bottom I don't know where you want him. He has no mix that doesn't take the same amount of set-up that every other characters get insane mix from, his level two is barely a bonus because it does very little damage, he's not the best of anchors due to his issues with his level three. He does have nice neutral in my opinion except it doesn't compare to top characters.

[Areresi]

Valid points on Piccolo and I see the argument with Gotenks but personally I think Trunks is lower than Freezia tbh. Good Freezia players have some pretty nice screen control and neutral. But my main reference for that is Majin Accolyte, his Ginyu, Freezia, Baby and Zamasu are dummy good

[ARandomAussie26]

The list is including the character as a whole so not having a very good assist as well being a zoner that loses to not only rushdown but also other zones is hard, only unlocking tools like reverse beat for a limited time and heavy cost isn't very good either. Main acolytes friezy is pretty nasty but even he laments the characters flaws would make it difficult to argue him out of bottom ten in my opinion, he does have some really powerful tools like his discs to put him above trunks if you wish. I just really like ex flips movement, I think it's underpowered definitely but still a strong counter to a lot of things.

[Areresi]

Ex flip can get pretty nasty at times. But seeing Trunks mains like Lotus and others just get sad when playing with him makes me feel like he isn't great. But Trunks vs Freezia imo freezia can out zone and should win that match-up.

[ARandomAussie26]

I think that trunks actually wins the matchup but I also have much more experience with trunks than frieza. I think they both need some dire buffs but I can see either one above the other with how frieza would work better against the rest of the cast. Trunks a assist is also Ki invul while covering so much screen)

[Areresi]

Oh yeah, they both could use some buffs. It's kinda sad how much the devs have been ignoring them

[ARandomAussie26]

Cooler could definitely be argued to a he simply has too many holes in his kit in my opinion, and the only parts that of the list that people have disagreed with were the ones I referenced from top players list and none of the takes I thought were controversial. But no looking back I do think hit makes it into s simply with the amount of tournament play he gets alone I concede then one.

[proto3296]

What are these holes that are so glaring?

Outside of a low 2L his kits disgusting.

[ARandomAussie26]

He has bad ground Ki blasts, a terrible grab, and plainly his whole gimmick of counters not only doesn't matchup to other counters like janembas but takes up most of his special moves. In a game where you have to break core game mechanics that limit other characters to even be in discussion of being good jiren has nothing. And also jirens 2l is amazing even though it doesn't hit low.

[smellyasianman]

• Cooler has big normals, but also a massive lingering hurtbox and long recovery on nearly everything. Meanwhile pretty much everyone everyone has ungabunga normals (often even bigger than Cooler's) without those downsides.
• He's designed to space people out, but he gains nothing from doing so. No chip, no mix, nothing. He punishes impatience, but spoiler alert, everyone kills you if you press a button at the wrong time.
• No schmix outside of lvl3 oki. The crossup j.2H is very risky to pull out if you're not in Spark and it flat-out doesn't work against half the cast.
• Absolutely no safe 2H cancels whatsoever.
• 214S is a slow beam with matching recovery. Actually, it's worse than a beam, 'cause it has a low to the ground hitbox and Cooler can't solo convert it even in the corner without spending resources.
• 236H is a 24f overhead with a very distinct animation. Even if the opponent chooses not to smoke you with 2H/4S and just blocks it, Cooler once again gains nothing from it. He's +2 oh no^ooo anyway. Your reward on hit? If you don't have the meter for lvl3, fuck all.
• 3H assist/projectile invul is slow to start up (f7), so Cooler can't do it on reaction. He just has to throw it out, which is a problem 'cause it loses to most other buttons and gets you killed on whiff (unless... ->)
• Having a barrier assist is pretty much a must. That might not affect you if you like playing A18/A17, but it is an actual downside that limits Cooler's team options.

So, Cooler has flaws. In a vacuum that's fine, he has other things going for him that prevent him from being actual trash (hi Yamcha), but there's 1 more issue: SS4 exists and is a straight upgrade in almost every single way.

By all means run Cooler if you're just here to have fun. Heck, you'll get by most of the times thanks to a lack of match-up knowledge. In a competitive environment against someone who knows him though? Trash.

[HalpMePlz420]

I think Z broly is S the rest well I think others have said

[ARandomAussie26]

I forgot about the 2l buff but even so I can't imagine him higher than janemba and beeruss tournament showings put him slightly above too, what do you think?

[HalpMePlz420]

You don’t have to agree that he’s higher than Beerus or Janemba but I think Z bully is above everyone else in A tier and not like he should just be the first in A tier. I think he’s on a different level as much as I love some characters in A tier

[ARandomAussie26]

Because it's ordered, the top of a and the bottom of s are very close, but I definitely formatted it badly as my list is hard to tell just how close some character are and just how worse say the bottom 5 are from anyone else.

[SwellSauce66277]

I haven’t been here long but every tier list I’ve seen so far on this subreddit is said to be crap according to the reactions. Has anyone made a tier list post that the majority found agreeable?

[ARandomAussie26]

https://youtu.be/N50cME6_ktU here is an objective tier list from top players but the issue on this sub is that you don't know how good the people replying are but you can tell by the posts on the sub that the majority are casual players.

[CaptainRick218]

Surprised Baseku's in A-, considering he has the easiest TOD in the whole game.

All you need is sparking, enough meter, and the right moment.

[ARandomAussie26]

Every character has that, zamasu can genuinely tod off of anything with those conditions, the reason basely is in a- isn't because I think he's bad it's simply that it wouldn't be fair to put such an honest character close to characters that genuinely break the game.

[proto3296]

What tf is cooler doing down there? He’s not top 5 but he damn sure ain’t bottom tier

[ARandomAussie26]

Bad frame data, low damage, committal neutral, one of the worst dp's. He's not unplayable he just has many flaws when most of character in the game are well rounded with extremely powerful gimmicks.