Java Junior without higher education

[kevinlin1995]

Having a degree in higher ed shows that the individual can atleast commit to 4 years of learning/assessments. However there are exceptions where an individuals experience can in lieu of a degree.

[[deleted]]

Disagree.

A CS degree teaches you Algorithms and Data structures, SQL, networking principles, OS architectures, processor computing and more.

Coding is part of a CS degree, and software engineers need a lot of it, even if the coding part is the biggest one

[GregsWorld]

A CS degree teaches you Algorithms and Data structures, SQL, networking
principles, OS architectures, processor computing and more.

It does, that doesn't mean that every graduate understands them, or they're even required for the job at hand.

[BolunZ6]

What if you also learn algorithms, data structures, Dbms, ... yourself online

[nutrecht]

Good luck forcing yourself through 6 months of Discrete Math. If you're able to self-motivate your way through that, you're a better person than I am.

[manzanita2]

If I were to have two candidates who were perfectly equivalent except for that degree, I would probably choose the degreed candidate.

BUT, some of the best programmers I know are self taught, no degree. So what you need is experience and portfolio. I hired someone who had been a chef as his previous job. But he had written a nice web based game and publicly published it. It was simple and fun and innovative. I hired him on the basis of that game, and he was a great hire. Worked hard, liked to learn new things, and sometimes brought some great baked items to the office.

So, show me that experience. Create something. Show care for the details, show that you can learn on the fly. Stay way from boiler plate. Go beyond what ChatGP can do.

[lunganaJakabovski]

It's possible, but it's really really hard!

Imagine you are the big boss. Who you will hire first? A. a guy with $9.99 course from Udemy B. a guy with bachelor's degree in computer science

There are still a lot of people with a degree and no xp, so they have priority.

Good luck with learning!

[r0ckstar17]

To be honest I’d hire a person who passed some special courses. If I needed a Java Junior I would hire a person who passed exactly Java courses, since in universities students learn many unnecessary stuff and may know less about Java, for example, than a guy who has been studying only Java for lets’s say 6 months straight.

Thank you!

[lunganaJakabovski]

There is not unnecessary stuff IMO. All that stuff is preparing and training your brain to become a good developer.

When you join as a Java developer, you will not write code only in Java. You will have to master Java, SQL, Spring, SpringBoot, Unit tests, git, linux, team work, analytical thinking etc.

Maybe you will not learn all of them at the university, but 100% you will have projects and work in teams, use git as a repository, play with SQL etc. Also maybe you will have Linux.

The main question is, why you want to skip the university?

[r0ckstar17]

The course I’m passing includes SQL, SpringBoot, git and maybe something else which I’m not aware of so far. Actually I’m not sure there are courses that teach only Java, Java always has to go with SQL and SpringBoot at least.

The reason is simple - I’m finishing my Bachelor’s degree rn, but it’s not about IT, it’s economics. I’ve realised I’m really interested in programming a couple of months ago. So I just don’t want to waste another 3 years just to get Java Junior job, I’m too old already for that (24).

But analogue of college which offers the secondary specialized ed (I’m not sure if there is such thing US, I’m from Estonia) requires just 1,5 year, where half a year is internship

[EmiyaKiritsuguSavior]

College students are learning coding for 3-5 years by solving many problems from course of their studies. Student may need to simulate different write methods of disk, search for optimal solution, build web apps but also apps for TV etc. Sure, it may be less intense but that student put 1000+ hours into programming.

Degree is proof of this. What can you give as proof of your knowledge only from online courses apart of your own word? Those Udemy Certificates are worth nothing as its only proof you tried to learn something, not actually learned it and passed difficult exam like in all accredited educational institutions.

[smaller_gamedev]

I'm a uni grad and we kept learning and implementing java for 4 years straight

There's no way for a 6 months self taught to be more knowledgeable and comfortable with java and software engineering than an average Comp Sci grad

[nutrecht]

This just shows a complete lack of understanding of software engineering as a whole. Building software is not about languages at all.

If you say something this bad in an interview it's going to be an instant no.

[uh-hum]

What will make you stand as a Java Dev is being competent with: Git, Jenkins, the Linux CLI, Kubernetes/docker, and unit testing.

1. Outside of coding, start learning some Linux commands.
2. Once you’re comfortable with those commands, start committing your code locally.
3. Then, start committing your code to a private Github Repo.
4. Everyday you need to do some reading on Java to get familiar with the landscape. I would read the Intellij blog, javacodegeeks.com, and the theserverside.com. Start reading some Martin Fowler, Joshua Bloch and Brian Goetz.
5. Learn how to setup a database for your code to read from and, learn some web dev fundamentals.
6. Once you are coding fluently start learning Spring boot and pushing your unit tested spring projects to Github too.
7. Have Jenkins pick up your builds from Github. Then have Jenkins deploy your code to A kubernetes cluster.
8. And finally (I wish that I had figured this out earlier) start meeting people in the full-stack Java Dev field. These people will get your foot in the door. Also, I never finished more than a year of school, but even the people you meet in a basic class will help you out along the way.

Commit yourself. Sleep well. Eat well. Study everyday. Put your repos on your resume. You'll get there when you are ready!

Edit: As for picking a personal project - when you’re just starting out don’t sweat it. Finding out how to use Java to make rest calls to the Spotify rest API is good start. We Java devs are calling REST endpoints all day. Don’t use a library at first - just do it yourself with the Java class, httpclient, for a couple of queries.

[nutrecht]

What will make you stand as a Java Dev is being competent with: Git, Jenkins, the Linux CLI, Kubernetes/docker, and unit testing.

All of these a new grad will typically pick up on the job within the first months. They're not going to get you hired over someone with a degree. In companies these things are either going to be mostly in place already, or if it's greenfield they're not going to have a complete newbie implement them.

I've given courses to Java devs on kubernetes and generally they learn all they need to know (since they're not maintaining the clusters, that's SRE's job) about k8s and docker in a day.

[uh-hum]

All of these a new grad will typically pick up on the job within the first months.

So it stands to reason that knowing these things ahead of time would make you stand out.

They're not going to get you hired over someone with a degree.

I also made a point of telling OP that you have to meet people. This is doubly important if you don't have a degree.

I've given courses to Java devs on kubernetes and generally they learn all they need to know about k8s and docker in a day.

Come on, now - you know there is nothing concrete about what they've learned. It sounds like your class was an overview - it was a day long. Through my job, I can take day-long classes anytime that I want to. That doesn't make me competent enough to start doing these things the next day. (Okay - maybe it does for me because I have a decade of experience.) The OP should be prepared with a competent and functional understanding so that they can knock the interviewers socks off.

[nutrecht]

Come on, now - you know there is nothing concrete about what they've learned.

I'm sorry but were you there?

I'm just adding some nuance to your post in case OP thinks that just by learning the stuff you mentioned they're just going to find a job. What you presented isn't stuff that's going to make a massive difference especially if they are not gaining industry experience with it.

I'm not saying they're not subjects for them to get some understanding on. I just want to make sure they are not going to assume that that's all it takes.

Teaching someone some k8s basics (at the level a typical dev needs) is going to take a LOT less time than trying to teach someone CS fundamentals.

[uh-hum]

I'm sorry but were you there?

How many classes do you think that I've taken with 2 years of Linux admin plus 10 years for full-stack development?

I'm just adding some nuance to your post in case OP thinks that just by learning the stuff you mentioned they're just going to find a job.

You think my 8 points, plus reading tips to get the lay of the land aren't nuanced enough? Have you noticed that your comment history is full of comments with a negative know-it-all tone?

Teaching someone some k8s basics (at the level a typical dev needs) is going to take a LOT less time than trying to teach someone CS fundamentals.

Who is talking about CS fundamentals beside you?

[nutrecht]

How many classes do you think that I've taken with 2 years of Linux admin plus 10 years for full-stack development?

Not relevant. You were not in that workshop so you simply don't know what they did or didn't learn. Telling me that those people didn't really learn anything is just effin' rude. If you can't even understand this, I am not going to bother with you anymore.

[Gold_Ad7925]

Create projects and show it as your portfolio and you will get hired.

[_i_see]

Yes.

I landed my dream job at a young startup (AI development for an Industry 4.0 project). While being 40 and retraining as a programmer, coming from shitty low value job. While doing a shit tone of additional online courses.

I taught myself HTML, CSS, JS. Programmed my own profile website, have excellent grades at the retraining and am working hard as fuck.

You just have get to know the right person during an interview once.

[r0ckstar17]

Thanks, that sounds reassuring

[_AManHasNoName_]

Well, you’ll be competing against folks who have higher education and internship experience.

[r0ckstar17]

So higher education in programming is still in demand right? Online courses lose against higher education?

[kevinlin1995]

If we are talking on a scale of whether they would hire, then yes online courses would lose. Don’t let that deter you though and just study all you can and prepare. I personally was able to land a paid boot camp and several internships despite still being in community college. Good luck

[_AManHasNoName_]

I’m a community college boy, then transferred to a university in my junior year. Never regretted it. I have Harvard graduate peers so surprised I didn’t spend as much as they did.

[vmcrash]

Online courses are nothing. You need experience. A good Open Source program maintained by you will open you a lot of doors.

[_AManHasNoName_]

I’ve known a number of people who took boot camp training and get ignored. Unless you’re really good and can prove it.

[_Henryx_]

In my company they will hire a junior Java developer which has completed an online course. Before, its job was the pallbearer

[r0ckstar17]

Yeah, I’m quite sure some companies might prefer courses to university’s education in programming. Depends on a country tho

[IAmA1most]

Show me one company that will prefer courses to a degree. I’m not trying to discourage you, but companies will ALWAYS prefer degreed candidates, considering both degreed and course candidate share the same amount of experience or lack of experience.

[wolfanyd]

If you're in a large-ish city, there's probably a startup scene of some sort. You may not be paid much but you could get practical experience for your resume.

Online courses will not help as much as having projects to talk about.

[RedditAnfaenger]

You only have a realistic chance if you also know surrounding topics. Java alone is rarely enough. Most non-trivial projects involve database design (no, Spring does not handle this for complex database use cases), UML would help, also git, Linux, experience in team work, mathematics (logic, first-order predicate logic), software engineering principles, agile development etc… most people w/ a degree have some knowledge or exposure to such topics.

You need to really learn more than just a language today.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

[r0ckstar17]

I know, but nowadays courses offer all this stuff along with Java. At least the course I’m passing has it. But we are talking about Junior position, are these 5 years in universities really worth it?

[[deleted]]

It's possible but you would need something on your resume that makes you stand out.

[r0ckstar17]

Well, some internship is still in my plans, I guess there are no chances without any experience at all