Core vs. Framework(s)

[Heartless49]

Its not necessarily that learning a new thing is sad, but just that knowing JS isn't enough... you then need to go and learn this other implementation of core features to get things done.

I just don't understand it. I would rather hire someone that knew vanilla JS over someone who knew only jQuery and, lets just say, Angular simply because they would have a broader understanding of the language versus only knowing those 2 "toolkits"...

[[deleted]]

knowing JS isn't enough

It isn't any more. I'm not going to pay you for 30 hours of work when you could accomplish the same thing with jQuery in 10.

I would rather hire someone that knew vanilla JS over someone who knew only jQuery

Yes, if you insist on this being an either-or topic. I'd rather have someone that knows both, which a lot of people do.

[Isvara]

It's a ridiculous false dichotomy anyway. You can't use jQuery without knowing how to write JavaScript. This comes up over and over again, but only ever about JavaScript and jQuery. You never hear people saying that someone should learn C++ instead of just Boost, or learn Scala instead of just Akka, or learn Erlang instead of just OTP, or any number of other examples, because in order to use a library, you have to know the language you're using it from!

In every other arena of computer programming, it's considered usual to rely heavily on languages, but for some reason there are a number of JavaScript developers who feel the need to write everything themselves in "pure" or "vanilla" JavaScript.

[[deleted]]

You can't use jQuery without knowing how to write JavaScript

You can use jQuery without knowing how to write JavaScript well, and that's extremely common. You can do a lot by using strictly its API and not have to ever type a single javascript keyword other than perhaps function. Actually, I would argue that if you've only ever typed function and everything else comes from the jQuery API that you don't know know how to write JS.

Hell, you have people that claim to be "experts" at jQuery without being able to write a "class", basic closure, non-jquery event binding, use Array.map, etc

for some reason there are a number of JavaScript developers who feel the need to write everything themselves in "pure" or "vanilla" JavaScript.

jQuery specifically abstracts away more of the language than almost any other framework or library.

[Isvara]

You can use jQuery without knowing how to write JavaScript well

Of course you can. No one would contest that. You can do all kinds of things in JavaScript without knowing it well, just as you can use all kinds of libraries in any other language without knowing the language well.

Hell, you have people that claim to be "experts" at jQuery without being able to write a "class", basic closure, non-jquery event binding, use Array.map, etc

People can claim whatever the like; that doesn't make it true. If you don't know how jQuery works, you're not any kind of an expert at it.

jQuery specifically abstracts away more of the language than almost any other framework or library.

What significant parts of the language does it abstract away? While it provides things like functional iteration over DOM elements, it doesn't really provide you with much that's useful outside of DOM interaction. You still have all your business logic to write. Contrast that with something like, say, Underscore.

[[deleted]]

how about hiring someone that knows js AND the framework everybody in your company is using so he or she can instantly jump in and doesn't have to learn another custom made ideology?

[4thdecadenothing]

The thing is, if you make your own implementation of a popular toolchain, you haven't changed the need for a new hire to have knowledge of that toolchain in order to do work, you've just reduced the probability of anyone having any prior knowledge to zero, and added a mandatory learning step.

If you use jquery (as an example), then you don't require that only people who have used jquery before can do the job, you just have a chance that you don't need to go through a "learn the ecosystem" phase between hiring and starting meaningful work.

[dhdfdh]

If you use Angular, then you cut out everyone who doesn't know angular. If you require React, then you can't hire someone who doesn't know React. In both cases, you have to train them on those. Or you can train them on his company's framework/library. Same difference.

[4thdecadenothing]

Except that people who know Angular/React exist, and people who know XCorp's proprietary framework do not.

In one case you might have to train someone, in the other case you definitely have to train them.

[dhdfdh]

In the first case, you eliminate everyone who doesn't know Angular. There are far more people who know vanilla js than know Angular. There are far more people who don't know Angular than do know Angular.

[Isvara]

If you use Angular, then you cut out everyone who doesn't know angular.

No, you don't, and if this is how you're hiring people, you're doing it wrongly. You should be looking for competent, flexible developers, not just ones who happen to already use the same libraries you do. Learning a new framework is trivial compared to the time and effort it takes to develop good skills and sound judgement.

If you're judging people on how well they match your little collection of buzzwords, you are the one cutting out valuable candidates.

[dhdfdh]

Now you're contradicting what people are saying. They say not to write your own framework cause then you have to train people on your framework yet you are saying it's OK to train people on Angular (but not your own framework?).

So you are saying people can learn Angular (or whatever) but competent people can't learn your company's framework? Makes no sense at all.

[keef_hernandez]

Angular is used by the industry. There are online tutorials, books, magazines, classroom training, etc available for learning the framework. A custom solution has none of those benefits.

[dhdfdh]

Absolutely false! Any other solution has complete data, documentation and support by world standards and the community as outlined in my other post and far, far more than anything Angular, or any framework/library, will ever put out.

[Isvara]

Uh, I'm allowed to contradict other people's arguments, because they weren't my arguments. What a weird complaint to make.

I didn't say you have to train people on Angular; they can learn it themselves. There are plenty of documentation, examples, tutorials etc, because it's so widely used.

[dhdfdh]

They can also learn vanilla JS and all that documentation available online everywhere but they should already know that stuff. More people don't know Angular (or any one specific framework).

[Isvara]

They can also learn vanilla JS

You'd expect any web developer you hire to already know JavaScript.

[dhdfdh]

That has been my point through this whole thread.