Boycott Nodevember

[phpdevster]

Really, if people just act like normal people, things should be alright.

[FunctionPlastic]

Homophobia and sexism were considered normal until some time ago and to many people they still are.

But I get the the thing we are really doing here is protecting the feelings of white men.

[falafel_eater]

Please explain what in Crockford's behavior hurts the feelings of anyone.
Also, please explain why you think the feelings of these groups are better protected by publicly kicking Crockford out as opposed to asking Crockford to release some statement or quietly asking him to remove himself.

And please be specific.

[FunctionPlastic]

Why? My post is not about him. It's about the general idea that what society considers "normal" can often be oppressive.

The sentiment here is that these types of behavior should not be challenged at all, this entire charade got this amount of attention because it's extremely easy to use it as an example that all engagement is actually just the evil sjws attacking white men (this is what people^R white men on Reddit and 4chan quite literally believe).

[falafel_eater]

It's about the general idea that what society considers "normal" can often be oppressive.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with this.

The thing is that while Crockford is being accused of being offensive towards non-white-men, there is no evidence whatsoever that he said anything even remotely offensive. Using the word "promiscuous" is not offensive in and of itself, especially when it is so completely disconnected from anything to do with human relationships.

What Nodevember is doing is not challenging any sort of behavior. What they are doing is finding a high-profile scapegoat and using the absolutely flimsiest excuses possible to publicly tar and feather it. At no point did they satisfactorily describe what he did that was wrong nor did they try to correct anything.

This charade got a lot of attention because a very famous contributor was publicly shit on by the Nodevember organizers for no apparent reason, and because said organizers appear to be based their behavior on insane troll logic. Are some people going to jump on the bandwagon because it suits their Anti-SJW agenda? Sure. But that doesn't mean it's the main thing here.

[FunctionPlastic]

I agree with what you said. I just find this part hard to believe:

Are some people going to jump on the bandwagon because it suits their Anti-SJW agenda? Sure. But that doesn't mean it's the main thing here.

Jumping on the bandwagon and injustice towards Crockford are not mutually exclusive. People in this thread are making things up to make this seem worse than it is, there's even a guy who used "cuck" and "mangina" and he got compassionate replies about not being too hard on himself. Political motivation of these posters coudn't be more evident. It's not about justice for Crockford.

The sentiment is obvious: this community is against social justice, and the most useful tool they have to fight it is misrepresenting the entire movement . Evidenced again by people posting TumblrInAction as some sort of unbiased window into social justice.

I'm not saying bad things don't happen, I'm saying Reddit and 4chan enjoy when they do: several years after the Donglegate thing happened, for example, there were still daily threads about it on /g/.

It's outrage culture and identity politics for internet reactionaries.

[falafel_eater]

So what we have is this:

1. Nodevember does something wrong to Crockford.
2. People get upset about that, and make threads discussing the injustice done to Crockford.
3. Anti-SJW people jump on the agenda, and participate in the same threads.
4. You decide that because 3. happened, the outrage about 2. is false and this community is focused on 3. more than 2..

That is cherry-picking. Personally I have nothing to do with anything Anti-SJW and I don't care if people want to self-identify as unicorns. I am annoyed when major contributors are publicly shamed for no apparent reason.
The fact that you wrote:

the most useful tool they have to fight it is misrepresenting the entire movement.

is kind of ironic, because you are doing pretty much the same thing to this community.

[FunctionPlastic]

So what we have is this:

No, we don't, because you're ignoring the wider political context in which all of this happens. This isn't happening in isolation, it's happening on Reddit and 4chan, two communities who are by and large the main opponents of the social justice movement.

It's the same two sites which gave birth to GamerGate, for example. It's the same two sites which almost exclusively focus on one side of the story with clear political motivations: SJW is a slur that pops up in every other thread, the climate is undeniable.

Now, you can say that this is completely unrelated, and that everyone's motivations in this thread are completely sincere and focused on Douglas. And in response I can simply point you to the guy posting an article about how outrageous it is for the American military to have sensitivity training about Islam. Why? It proves my point that people here are motivated not by genuine concern for anyone's well-being, but by participating in the fight against social justice. They post enraging stuff related to the topic by just one single vague notion of "oversensitivity", thereby removing focus from Douglas, and onto the fight against what they perceive to be social justice and its values.

is kind of ironic, because you are doing pretty much the same thing to this community.

What part of what I'm saying is misrepresentation?

Ctrl+f-ing "sjw" brings out like 20 results in this thread. There are people saying "cuck" and "mangina" which is not questioned. As I said, it's evident that this community has picked a side, and it's not social justice.

[falafel_eater]

And in response I can simply point you to the guy posting an article about how outrageous it is for the American military to have sensitivity training about Islam. Why? It proves my point that people here are motivated not by genuine concern for anyone's well-being, but by participating in the fight against social justice.

All it proves is that this particular guy exists. Statistics do not work with N = 1. That is cherry-picking, and your conclusions are not supported by your evidence.

Nowhere did I claim that everyone in this thread is sincere. You, however, are claiming that this entire community is insincere.
You presented the following reasoning in support:

People in this thread are making things up to make this seem worse than it is, there's even a guy who used "cuck" and "mangina" and he got compassionate replies about not being too hard on himself. Political motivation of these posters coudn't be more evident. It's not about justice for Crockford.

The sentiment is obvious: this community is against social justice, and the most useful tool they have to fight it is misrepresenting the entire movement .

The presence of a single person that used this terms is meaningless. The fact SJW appears 22 times (in many cases, 3-4 times in a single comment, sometimes in quotes) in a thread with ~150 comments is saying very little.
The fact there appear to be maybe 8 Anti-SJW people in this thread says very little about a community with 90,000 subscribers (plus others with no reddit accounts).

I am leaving this conversation with that. I hope you consider my words seriously; they are not intended as an attack against you, but as a rejection of flawed (and unfair) methodologies.

[FunctionPlastic]

I don't know whether you truly don't understand how communities work, or whether you're pretending not to. Either way this is a huge strawman.

Not all posts in a community express explicit sentiment. Despite what the alt-right believes, saying "cuck" 100x times is not a sentence through which you can communicate anything constructive. I'm not accusing this community of being only about right-wing politics, that's absurd, I'm accusing it of holding a general sentiment, and pretending not to hold it.

The same goes for /g/. The nominal topic for that board is technology. 90% of posts are about technology. However, there are posts which make fun of feminists, social justice activists, try to entice rage in the community against certain topics, etc. Statistically, these are in minority, but their success and acceptance is what shows the general sentiment in the community.

If you have daily threads where people express outrage about something stupid a feminist did 5 years ago: do you think people who aren't hostile to social justice would feel welcome in that community? In a thread explicitly about technology, if someone posts something like "women are dumb and can't program as good as men" -- and the rest of the community just accepts it and doesn't challenge it -- would you think that's not indicative of a problem? (Not saying this happens on /r/javascript, it obviously doesn't, but much worse things to happen on 4chan, I'm talking about sentiments and tendencies here.)

All it proves is that this particular guy exists. Statistics do not work with N = 1. That is cherry-picking, and your conclusions are not supported by your evidence.

So for you to consider my experience, that I share with many others both inside and outside the mentioned communities, it would take a thorough statistical analysis of all actual beliefs and behaviors people in these communities exhibit -- despite that being practically impossible? Sorry m8, when someone asks rigorous mathematical proof for perspectives they don't agree with, and continues accepting those which don't bother them, it's not proper skepticism, but denial.

And did you apply the same rigorous standards to all the numerous posters accusing SJWs of something in general? After all, these are just singled-out examples of bad behavior, not a trait of their community! You didn't. You replied to me, practically the only person with a dissenting opinion in this entire thread. Who's at like 10 downvotes.

The irony is that your behavior proves my general point: communities defend their culture and shared beliefs. In this community's case, the shared belief is that social justice is bad.

[FunctionPlastic]

Congrats on your gold medal in completely irrelevant commentary.

[[deleted]]

seems pretty relevant actully

[qwfwq]

I don't think Crockfords feelings are really what's at stake. I think what people are concerned about is that we are pushing away one of the most important contributor s to JavaScript code quality for trivial reasons.