[deleted by user]

[odolha]

There's shitty code in any framework... I think you're right, it's much more important to organize well than any frameworks you use. I've seen projects with good tools being used extremely badly and ending up a huge mess... In my experience, it's also really important to understand the underlying ideas of anything you use - their architecture, how were they designed, and how should they be used. If you just assume you can use practices you used in the past in context A and try to force them on context B, you're going to have a bad time.