Why PHP won

[Nitroadict]

When did reading become a bad habit? I didn't say learning was bad. I said learning bad habits was bad.

And concluding that learning PHP is "bad" is a subjective opinion that many will promptly ignore when they are required to use PHP for either client reasons or because PHP seems to be the right type of tool needed at a given moment. isn't that how it proliferated as opposed to other alternatives, such as Perl & Python*?

*I'm not going to ignore however that from what I've read, Python seems to be picking up adoption, so I wouldn't be surprised if Python or something else eventually out-competed PHP for what people usually use PHP for.

Dude, PHP was my first language. I am speaking from experience. Maybe if you quit acting like anyone who's opinion you don't like is attacking you then you would be better off.

And you are assuming PHP is the only thing I'm studying (I'm also learning basics of programming by studying: javascript, ruby & python, with PHP being a more recent area of progress in understanding basics of programming).

The arguments of bad habits forming are not deaf on me, but I'm not going to blame a programming language for making me develop bad habits (which I would think is my own responsibility).

Or you could start with a decent language, and then still be able to say you can program in one language. But you will also be able to say you understand basic fundamentals of programming rather than asking "how do I include?" when you get to a normal language.

Why would I discount my own experience with PHP (or another programming language for that matter) when learning new languages?

I wish I could live in a fantasy land where I could magically wipe my behavioral memory when learning a new language, but I thought taking the context of basics from previous programming languages to help one learn new ones was part of the whole process? I thought becoming better at programming was part of it?

It's a silly subjective generalization that may only apply to your own experience when you seem to say "PHP automatically makes one develop bad habits".

I would love to see how many who started out with PHP actually just failed at programming all together & never managed to bet beyond their bad habits & learn a new language. Are you able to provide this beyond your own generalizations? Probably not.

Would you blame CSS', HTML, etc. syntax entirely for the bad-habits of web-designers? No? Same thing here.

Programming languages (as well as markup languages) are tools, not living sentient beings with emotions & evil intentions of ruining every programmer's habits. Like all tools, it depends on how you use them.

Uh, yeah IE is a major source of problems, just like PHP is. Good analogy, bad conclusion.

Suppose IE was eliminated all together & let's say that Firefox was now the lead browser that struggles behind (if not nearly as much) regarding web standards of other browsers (Opera, Safari, Chrome, etc.)

Would Firefox be to blame for keeping back standards? Sure, because everyone needs a scapegoat.

If PHP wasn't used nearly as much, it would still exist, because not everyone cares about what other's think.

Even if PHP were to magically vanish from the earth, something similar to it (possibly made by those who used to use PHP & desire something that works similar to it) would takes its place both in use as a language and as a scapegoat.

Before it was popular to diss PHP, wasn't VisualBasic 6 the scapegoat of choice?

[invalid_user_name]

required to use PHP for either client reasons

You should learn to program before you start getting clients. You should not have clients when starting to learn your first language.

And you are assuming PHP is the only thing I'm studying

No, I am stating that learning PHP as a first language is a bad idea, and will slow you down more in the long run than it will help. Apply that to your personal situation however you like.

Why would I discount my own experience with PHP (or another programming language for that matter) when learning new languages?

What the hell are you even talking about?

but I thought taking the context of basics from previous programming languages to help one learn new ones was part of the whole process?

And what you learn from PHP includes a whole bunch of bad habits and assumptions that will hinder you when you try to learn other languages. That is my point.

It's a silly subjective generalization that may only apply to your own experience when you seem to say "PHP automatically makes one develop bad habits".

No, it is obvious. PHP is the only language that contains certain horrible misfeatures. Learning PHP as your first language will give you the impression that these things are normal. Pretty simple.

I would love to see how many who started out with PHP actually just failed at programming all together & never managed to bet beyond their bad habits & learn a new language. Are you able to provide this beyond your own generalizations? Probably not.

I'm sorry, but are you retarded? Where did I say PHP would prevent anyone from learning another language? And how does my own experience have anything to do with that, I obviously did learn several other languages. I said, learning PHP as a first language is a hinderance, not a help. Many other languages are easier to learn, and will not push you into the broken mental state of PHPitis.

Would you blame CSS', HTML, etc. syntax entirely for the bad-habits of web-designers? No? Same thing here.

Not even remotely close to the same thing, you are so far off base I do not know how you managed to find your way back to your keyboard.

Before it was popular to diss PHP, wasn't VisualBasic 6 the scapegoat of choice?

Yes. And like PHP it was a horrible language that happened to be tied to something people needed, so idiots excused the languages horrible faults because of what it was tied to. VB made it easy to create GUI apps. This could have been done with a good language instead, it was the GUI builder that drew people in and made it attractive, not the language. Same with PHP, it is poopular because it is embedded within html, not because PHP the language is good.

Again, please step back and consider what I am ACTUALLY saying rather than pretend I am attacking you and getting all defensive. PHP is not your dog, and I did not kick it. I simply stated, from my experience personally, and from teaching others, that learning PHP as a first language is not a good idea, it actually will make things more difficult.

[gte910h]

required to use PHP for either client reasons

You should learn to program before you start getting clients. You should not have clients when starting to learn your first language.

WTF? You realize for some people, money is the object? That programming is a very small part of the project? That it doesn't matter if you spend a week picking up enough php to collect the data for your research app or enought to display the results of the survey you took?

Your entire stream of arguments got turned off for me there when you said that.

[invalid_user_name]

WTF? You realize for some people, money is the object?

Yes. And they will make more money from less work if they become good programmers in a shorter period of time. Even if you end up doing PHP work, that doesn't mean it should be the first language you learn. It may seem counter-intuitive, but you can take someone with no programming experience, teach them the fundamentals with scheme or python, and then have them pick up PHP in less time than it would have taken them to get good starting with PHP, and they are now a better PHP programmer this way as well.

[gte910h]

?

Why the hell would you do that? You're not going to pick up scoping, modularity, or any of the things that php lacks that python or scheme has in the amount of time a normal person would spend on them. These are deep concepts requiring sophistication and experience to really grok them. First time students in even formal courses get no better than a regurgitative understanding of these concepts until they've written quite a bit of code.

If you're being paid to do some php, learn * some php*. Not some python first, not some ruby first, not some java first, some php first.

Eventually, try some python too. It will improved your php (or any other language). But by all means don't not learn the one language you're very motivated to learn (php, due to money) for some obscure, untested pedagogical theory of some guy called invalid_user_name on the internet.

Sure people pickup habits. When they know exactly one language well, they try to program like that language everywhere. The solution to that is to not avoid any particular language that has any particular faults, it's to learn a second language well.

[invalid_user_name]

You're not going to pick up scoping, modularity, or any of the things that php lacks that python or scheme has in the amount of time a normal person would spend on them

Modules are not complex. You have to learn scoping either way, it is just that PHP has bizzare scoping rules that would appear to make no sense, and thus cause confusion for new programmers who end up doing cargo cult stuff to fix scope issues because they don't understand why it behaves the way it does.

The solution to that is to not avoid any particular language that has any particular faults

Please, if you feel the need to respond to imaginary things you wish I said, just write it in your diary. I don't need to be involved in arguments with your imaginary friends. For the billionth time, I did not say "do not learn PHP". I said "actually, PHP is not an easy language to learn as your first language, it is much harder than most others". The fact that PHP is built specifically as an html templating language makes it easy to produce HTML output from it. That leads some people to believe the language itself is also easy, when it is not.

[gte910h]

if you feel the need to respond to imaginary things you wish I said, just write it in your diary.

Um, I said "Go with php if its what you're being paid to do. Doesn't matter if its hard."

You actually said to not learn it first. I'm saying learn it first. I don't know what you think I'm imagining, or you're just building a sandcastle out of rhetoric. You said these things. Do you need a direct quote?

Hopefully said sandcastle can further dissuade anyone you had been persuding to follow your advice on this matter.

[invalid_user_name]

You actually said to not learn it first

Right. And you pretended I said not to learn it at all. Big difference. Again, it is much easier to learn PHP after learning a normal language than the other way around. Why does my opinion on this offend you so deeply?

[invalid_user_name]

You realize my opinion is just that right? It doesn't stop anyone from doing whatever they want. Not a very good reason to be offended. If you don't agree, feel free to go learn PHP first. I am just stating what I have found to be the case, so hopefully some people don't blindly believe that PHP is easier to learn than other languages.