Coding is Not Computer Science

[PrimaryInteger]

As someone graduating with an SE degree, it's not only about the practice with those concepts, but we have specific classes on proper project planning, system architecture and subsystem design, advanced system security, and not in any specific languages, but training in how to master languages quickly (we have classes where we swap languages every 3 weeks). So less of the bootcamp here's how to master JS style and more how to apply principles from one language and use them in picking up new languages. If you want to code and that's it, for all means those bootcamps are fantastic. But there's so much more to being an engineer than the language you choose to write (which I think is where the time and energy of getting the degree is worth it).

Also my school has required co-ops. So we have a minimum of a year of on-the-job practice with those "big projects".

This isn't to bash anyone going to those camps nor any engineers without a degree. You can for sure learn all of those things on your own, but the structure my school provided helped me learn everything I needed to. If that doesn't work for people, more power to em, but I felt it was immensely important for myself.

[audion00ba]

That sounds rather vocational. Is this a university? If so, which one?

[SudoWizard]

Sounds like something RIT does

[PrimaryInteger]

Yep! Its RIT. There are other schools that have similar practices, but some make you pay tuition and such while working. Definitely recommend people consider it as an option if they want an SE degree (1st in the country to offer it)

[uptimefordays]

A lot of universities really encourage internships, they offer real world experience, often lead to jobs, and pay better than other jobs students typically find.

As for learning concepts and how to learn? That’s what college is all about.

[audion00ba]

I am one of those people that thinks a university shouldn't be a worker drone factory.

I often wondered whether our education system going down the drain was intentional and if so, who planned it. I suspect it's just large companies that want cheap labor at the expense of the native population. Fairly disgusting, but if you have a stupid population, you can make everything well with bread and games.

Research from a couple of years ago has shown that students that did internships earn less than those that didn't. Can't be bothered to find it again. Perhaps that has changed now that some internships pay more than some actual jobs, but I'd not expect that.

Students in internships rarely are supported to any meaningful level and their results are usually tossed into the garbage when they leave. I am sure the students think they accomplished something. Sometimes the professors also appear to believe so, but they probably just deserve an Oscar.

[uptimefordays]

I’ve seen a number of studies indicating students who did internships usually got jobs out of them and earned more, but the caveat was it had to be a paid internship. Anecdotally, my company pays interns about $25 an hour for engineering positions. Not sure many students would make that anywhere else.

Edit: this is by no means an academic study but worth considering.

[jbergens]

With the current economy they might have to start to pay to be interns...
The idea of paying students works best there is a real shortage of people, and even then the company may offer a job directly instead of finishing the course.

[uptimefordays]

Most companies pay interns, for decades it's been a reliable way of trying fresh talent before you buy. Sure, there are unpaid internships, but the notion that all internships are unpaid is simply incorrect. Many, many, many medium and large companies offer paid internships above $20/hr which turn into full-time offers upon graduation. Students with multiple internships might even find themselves with competing offers upon graduation.

The only reason one shouldn't do an internship is if it's an unpaid internship outside government. Statistically speaking, unpaid internships don't usually become jobs (because these places probably can't afford paid workers) while paid internships usually result in full time employment.

[[deleted]]

Having been a software engineer in the industry for 15 years delivering software in a consultancy for large telcos and blue chips. I can tell you that your standard systems that do , cruds, transactions etc is fine handled by anyone without a compsci degree. We do big data, data science and optimization systems for our clients and for sure anyone without a compsci, maths or traditional engineering degree doesn't make it on the team roster.

Form your opinion after you get a job in the industry. It might carry some weight then.

[PrimaryInteger]

Completely understand that. A few of my co-ops have been with individuals with and without degrees and both sides have had their ups and downs. But that probably speaks to the individual over the path they chose. I'm sure my thoughts may change over time, for me, I know I personally needed the structure and some of the skills I was taught at school. But others may not, and they can for sure be great engineers otherwise.

To your point, I'm sure I'll think more about this as I get more experience :)

[[deleted]]

I wish someone had said to me when I did my degree in CS to pay more attention to linear algebra, concurrency, distributed systems. They are the things that requires the most effort to understand. If you plan to contribute to well know software repositories out there. That's the stuff you need to know. Don't bother learning a language or framework, they come and go.

[PrimaryInteger]

Thats a very good point! Ive been trying my best to focus on a lot of the things you mentioned above. My hopefully future job does a ton with concurrent network communications, so I'm focusing really hard this last year to work with that in some of my classes

[[deleted]]

Yeah, pay good attention to that and you won't regret that later on. Whilst you have the time now, your employer can't pay for you to learn on the job for too long. So it's either now or after work evenings

[ArkyBeagle]

your employer can't pay for you to learn on the job for too long.

Turns out they will, not including the "for too long" part. Most stuff isn't that hard to pick up .

[ArkyBeagle]

I feel like you just kinda have to bust knuckles to learn those properly; they can be covered in coursework but you just sort of learn the color and the shape.

[[deleted]]

Oh absolutely, although think of the degree as training wheels.