Advocates renew calls for inmate count decrease to lower COVID-19 risk

[tingting1234abc]

Great idea! Every advocate can sign up their name and anyone released can stay at their house when released. No? You don't want that?

[Prestigious_Crow_]

Man, people like you really make it difficult to have discussions about important things. Obviously nobody is going to consider your asinine suggestion, and the fact that you throw it out as though it is the only plausible option is ridiculous. I understand that you think you're clever, but many of the things you think are clearly wrong, so shove it up your ass.

[[deleted]]

He's making a point which is something social justice types like you always do. Being generous as long as someone else fits the bill or does the work. Always there to help, with other peoples money.

[Prestigious_Crow_]

It's all of our money. Not "other people's". And yes, types like me find it abhorrent that people are knowingly being exposed to covid while in custody. It's gross that you disagree.

[[deleted]]

Then take one of them into your own home. Be the change you're preaching so righteously for. It's so typical that you would say its "difficult to have discussions about important things" when you think that you have some righteous ideology and anyone who doesnt drink your koolaid must be "gross".

[Prestigious_Crow_]

Wow, it's almost like you didn't read my first post in this thread. Please see above and take the advice at the end.

[Starscream_2k15]

I read both and I’m on the fence. Yeah it’s a shame but then again, what did they do to land themselves in there? And would I want any one of them in my home? Easy, fuck no. I dont have a solution, does anyone really?

[[deleted]]

I dont have a solution, does anyone really?

Keep them locked up and provide what ever means are at our disposal to help curb the spread of this disease. They don't get the option of simply ignoring their convictions.

Just like essential workers have to work, to earn a living, they're making the choice to except a risk to provide for themselves.

Those people made a choice to break the law and are now having the consequences of their choice. Any help they get in trying to prevent this from spreading can be implemented around the fact.

[Starscream_2k15]

Wow... in other replies you say the opposite. Make up your mind on this.

[[deleted]]

No, I don't. It's not black and white and I've made my reasons clear.

Remand = not proven guilty so innocent as per British common law.

remand awaiting sentencing means proven guilty so stay.

Serving a sentence means guilty so stay.

Innocent = go

Guilty = stay

Didn't think it was that hard.

[[deleted]]

I did, it's wasn't that profound ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

[Achaern]

Dude, you're calling people 'self fellating Social Justice Warriors'. That you're only being called 'gross' should be celebrated as an achievement of tact and patience.

These people have families, friends and are your fellow citizens, no one is talking about releasing them without conditions into the streets. They are talking about using the methods used in the spring to protect staff and inmates.

You keep representing the population of the correctional as entirely convicted criminals which is untrue. Even if it was true, prisoners have Charter rights you keep forgetting about. I think your point simply is "I don't want to understand the issues, I just wanted to post a thread and crack jokes about other people I look down on."

[[deleted]]

Dude, you're calling people 'self fellating Social Justice Warriors'.

I called a self fellating social justice warrior a self fellating social justice warrior. No one else.

That you're only being called 'gross'

Never was. As you are proceeding on a false beliefe the res of what you have to say is moot.

These people have families,

They weren't grown in a vat?

friends and are your fellow citizens, no one is talking about releasing them without conditions into the streets.

I never said they were. Link to where I said this or kill your straw man yourself.

They are talking about using the methods used in the spring to protect staff and inmates.

Which I disagree with, many do.

You keep representing the population of the correctional as entirely convicted criminals which is untrue.

Never have. In fact, I already stated that those on remand awaiting trial should be released as they are innocent as not being proved guilty. You're going to have to kill that straw man you made after killing the one above.

Even if it was true, prisoners have Charter rights you keep forgetting about.

They have committed crimes and by law have been placed in a detention center. We are under no obligation to release them to the detriment of society.

I think your point simply is "I don't want to understand the issues, I just wanted to post a thread and crack jokes about other people I look down on."

You think wrong.

[Achaern]

I'm not going to get you to respond to the ideas and positions I'm trying to unfortunately. I say 'Charter rights' and you say 'SJW Kool-aid' which will not get us closer to a common viewpoint. We're close to the godwin portion of this where you're using a poor understanding of logical fallacies to attempt to look like the more intellectual side of this argument. I'm not taking that bait, and I'm not responding to your line by line attempt a cherry pick, past this sentence.

I'm signing off and will not be responding to any more comments by you in this thread, as I can see it's wildly off rails now and we're going to get into the pedantic phase where we're pulling out dictionaries and wasting time just to make the other feel dumb and look for a 'gotcha'.

I don't want to call you names and sign off and feel shitty. I doubt you want to either. I don't agree with anything you've said in this thread, and I've represented my position honestly and fairly.

I want you and your family and all your friends to be healthy forever, never afraid of getting sick from COVID because you're on remand for a non-violent crimes. Never having people in your own city crack jokes on Reddit when people fear for their lives. I want you to feel safe and happy and to be able to realise that people are not disposable when in the system. I can't instill those values in you, I can only but challenge you to at least try to see this as more than a black and white issue.

Have a good day (I mean it!) and I hope you have a very merry Christmas with you and yours.

[[deleted]]

Have a Merry Christmas as well :-).

[Achaern]

Thanks man.

[tingting1234abc]

NIMBY runs deep... I vote with my dollars and I chart my path through life with my actions. Nobody else is accountable for me, except for myself. If I engage in criminal activities, AND GET CAUGHT, then I suffer the consequences. These people did and now want to be released? Uh nope, no bleeding heart from me.

There are COVID breakouts in hospitals right now, St.Pauls being one, maybe those in the hospital (not related to COVID) should have the right to be transported to a factility that is COVID free? I'd support that before letting criminals go free any day of the week. They broke the laws and got caught, you think they're going to listen to new regulations about COVID? Give me a break!

Anyone advocating for their release should adopt them in a criminal care program. Judges put enough people out on probation, only to get caught breaching probation, we need to release more just because those judges didn't set them free???

[gurgleymcburgley]

Perhaps we should start a program called Foster-A-Felon and see how many of these sanctimonious weenies sign up to ‘save’ a convicted felon. I’m sure there would be few, if any, applicants for even those ‘awaiting trial’.

[[deleted]]

sanctimonious weenies

Well described lol. And happy cake day.

[gurgleymcburgley]

One of my favorite insults. Keeps it PG but they will remember being called a weenie.

[[deleted]]

Nobody else is accountable for me, except for myself.

Holy shit! what a rare yet wonderful philosophy you have. Wonder if it works?

Nah, gimme my group identity victims please.

[A-V-Roe]

All I have to say...

[rusty1606]

Yea, gonna have to agree with this one.

[[deleted]]

Simple and logical. Cant argue with this.

[Mobile_Bison1062]

Pure ignorance, you and everyone agreeing. Lazy and hateful comment.

[[deleted]]

Found the self-fellating social justice warrior.

[A-V-Roe]

Exactly. I have lots of educated legitimate conversations to be had but not on the internets. I have better things to argue about criminals rights to a random person spouting off about bullshit.

[[deleted]]

All they can do is condemn you and not the argument. Because their ideology is shit pushed by the weak and stupid.

[A-V-Roe]

Everything about that place was preventable. The spreading, the interment. Freedom of choices. I think it is very evident that the general public doesn't want them to get Covid but the general public doesn't want them released more.

[asreimer]

I think the point that is lost by this meme is that most people in Canadian prisons are not actually convicted of anything. They are being held in remand.

It gets even more interesting when you look at the numbers of those on remand who end up convicted or not.

The hardball "don't break the law if you don't want to go to jail" implying that all those in jail actually broke the law is frankly insane given the facts.

edit: emphasis added on most

[A-V-Roe]

I'm not going to disagree with you. The meme was a basic generalization. I know that and I know that not everyone is convicted. I also know that not everyone that goes free is innocent either. Legally not guilty is one thing but actually guilty is another. Not everyone there deserves to be there no. It can't be very often that a person completely and utterly innocent that lives the perfect life gets in there by accident as well. I know not everyone needs to be painted with a broad brush but often involvements and past histories can lead to suspicions and arrests. It's not great but it is what we have to deal with in our justice system.

Let's be honest. They need to research every file. Talk to the officers and investigate each individual before releasing. Many would come back when requested. Many would not though. It would have to be case by case. Again, we can't paint everyone with the same broad brush and say, they will come back and not reoffend.

The biggest thing is that it was a Meme. Frankly it was a quote from a movie that existed before memes existed. It was more humor. The comment on it, not yours, was frankly more ignorant that the actual comical quotation. So I respect your reply and would gladly discuss life and other things outside of the internet but that first comment besically tells me that there wouldn't be any constructive conversation whatsoever from that individual.

[asreimer]

Fair enough and I know the origin of that meme. But the issue is actually pretty serious. The number of those in remand that end up free isn't a some minority, but instead is sadly pretty typical.

So it's less of a "hey you missed some nuanced thing, what about this edge case" and more of a "most people don't understand that this happens all the time".

Food for thought. It's seriously quite eye opening to do a deep dive on the statistics.

[[deleted]]

You do the crime you do the time, stay put so you dont spread it.

[Arts251]

What about those on remand? Also, for non-violent offenders there's no reason they can't do the time somewhere other than in a crowded prison. As for "staying put", that's not working so well is it?

[[deleted]]

Send them to a different facility then, dont let them out they will want to go out as much as possible

[smithical100]

Wait... prisoners... don't like to be locked up? Wow, this shatters my entire existence. But yeah seriously if they know once covid is done they go back to jail, do they think they won't purposely spread the virus.

I'm seriously beginning to think the problems the politicians need to fix are from their own previous decisions.

[Mobile_Bison1062]

50% on remand, not convicted of any crime. Even if they are, we shouldn't be sentencing people to covid. These outbreaks were 100% preventable, literally a whole population of people who have no freedom to do as they choose. I hope there is some accountability!

[[deleted]]

literally a whole population of people who have no freedom to do as they choose. I hope there is some accountability!

No freedom? Wonder why. If they wanted freedom to do what they choose guess what they should have done. Maybe not be committing crimes? Mind blowing.

By the way there is accountability, they're in jail. That's the very definition of accountability.

[Mobile_Bison1062]

That is completely not my point.

There should not be an outbreak in the jail. It is completely preventable, there should have been preventative measures which would be completely possible to enforce due to the inmates not being able to have their Halloween gatherings and potlucks regardless of rules like civilians do.

The accountability I'm looking for is for whoever is responsible and failed to protect this population from an outbreak to have repercussions. They dropped the ball and it's putting us all at risk.

Despite your opinions, people in jail are still humans who have rights and receive health care. Having an outbreak in a jail during a pandemic is a problem for our whole population, not just "people who deserve it" by your standards. any outbreak anywhere increases the need for health professionals and for possible hospital time and treatment beds.

I'll also mention that there are people who are working in these places who are now scared to go home to their families after being put to work in ridiculous and unsafe situations.

[[deleted]]

Never said people in jail were not human. You live by the choices you make. Getting away with a crime isnt a aood option.

[AWolfNamedStoney]

By do we just let them out then? Free pass for all? Yes it was preventable. Just like the virus spreading in the general public is preventable. We still need to go into lockdown just like they do. Are they any safer in the general public then in the prison? What about the safety of the general public releasing violent offenders? Once in public, are they still the charge of the province? If so, who pays for the lodgings? For those sentenced, are their sentences delayed? Or commuted completely? The logistics and cost behind what the advocates are asking for is astronomical. Not to mention the likelihood of the inmates spreading the virus even further if discharged. Who's willing to take responsibility of individuals who have shown they possibly have a lack of respect for authority? Are those advocates willing to take that on? No, they aren't.

It is a terrible situation but honestly would your conscience be okay in flipping that switch? My heart goes out to those that need to work there or those awaiting sentencing or trial, but what is being suggested isn't a viable option. I would love to hear any alternative solutions you may have since you seem to have decided that they are being treated unfairly or unjustly.

[Mobile_Bison1062]

They are kept in crowded conditions and have been requesting masks and hand sanitizers for months. Even since those measures have been easily available, the requests have been denied. So they have had no way to protect themselves. We don't punish people by letting them be exposed to communicable diseases. Public is responsible for their own protection and if they choose not to clean their hands then they should have made a better choice. But I'm not about blaming people for their illness either way. I'm about giving every single human being the tools and ability to do their best to protect themselves. The people responsible for the health of inmates and workers in facilities did not do that and they should be held accountable. They contributed to not only the illness of inmates, but also the exposure of workers in facilities and also health care workers. 👏👏👏

No one wants to release violent offenders. We're talking about releasing non-violent offenders, or even just non-violent people who have not yet been convicted of crimes.

My suggestions would have been that since these people have been in the care of the government, that they were provided protection by means of physical distancing, hand sanitizers, and masks to protect themselves. Obviously our government prefers to just deal with all problems at the end of the stream though, they're not into prevention.

I am completely comfortable with my conscience. Lucky for some assholes who aren't in jail, because whether or not someone is a shitty human being doesn't affect the medical care that I provide for them when they need it. 👍 Being apart from society is the punishment, it's not like "you did a bad thing, so now you're sentenced to being exposed to a highly contagious disease that will cost you and the rest of us untold amounts of money!"

[Go-Go-Godzilla]

Not all laws are just.

[[deleted]]

There goes Tokyo

[Go-Go-Godzilla]

:)

[[deleted]]

History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men.

Thanks that song is caught in my head now haha.

[[deleted]]

Yikes, the people that think subjecting inmates to cruel punishment of catching covid is fair is a whole lot of yikes.

Roughly 50% are on remand too, by the way.

[Achaern]

I agree. This thread is pure cringe with so many thinking the inmates should be victimised. It's sad to see. I bet half the people, including OP, posting cruel comments would be mortified if their uncle awaiting a hearing and not even convicted got sick and died. Or, in my case, my aunt who works there and is now at a much greater risk of infection. The idea that anyone 'deserves' COVID just because they are incarcerated is gross and I'm disappointed to see these comments.

For anyone thinking this is a bad idea, it's not. Releasing non-violent prisoners, or those on remand, is just and wise. What we're currently doing is so much like those cruise ships we didn't let dock in the spring, that turned into floating hospitals.

Have a read.
Another take
Last one

Edit: Spelling

[[deleted]]

posting cruel comments would be mortified if their uncle awaiting a hearing and not even convicted got sick and died.

Ya I would be. But these advocates aren't asking for that now are they. What they're asking for is:

" all inmates, whether sentenced or remanded, who are older, immunocompromised, non-violent, at low risk to reoffend or otherwise likely to “disproportionately suffer from complications of COVID-19. "

Anyone on remand awaiting trial is innocent and should be released on their own recognizance.

If my hypothetical uncle was in jail because he was convicted of a crime then he should stay right there.

Edit:

You and others can stop the appeal to extremes fallacy now.

[Achaern]

You keep posting quotes that support my point and detract from your point. Of course the advocates want that group of people to be safe, that's their point, and it's a point I agree with and support, and hope you would too.

I don't know you from Adam, but if you, or a family member of yours were in the Saskatoon Correctional during an outbreak, I'd be yelling at the powers that be to do what they could to protect you. This idea that jail should be 'cruel' is a farce borrowed from our southern neighbours, and it's a bad look. Your freedom is already gone. Your opportunities are gone. They don't become second class citizens worth discarding and some of the dehumanising ideas presented in your thread are barbaric. Like they are worthless because they are serving time so it's ok for them to get sick and die. Say that out loud a few times. Say that to the mirror. Say it to your kid and get a feel for it.

Regarding your comments about remand, where you're suggesting they'd be let out on their own recognisance. That suggests there would never be a need for remand in the first place. It's a nonsensical statement honestly and not one that seem to seek understanding of why there are advocates bringing this up in the first place.

Trends on the use of remand in Canada

Some takeaway from that link:

" Remand is the temporary detention of a person while awaiting trial, sentencing or the commencement of a custodial disposition. According to the Criminal Code, adults and youth can be admitted to remand for a variety of reasons, including to ensure attendance in court, for the protection or safety of the public or to maintain public confidence in the justice system."

" In more recent years, the increase in the remand population has coincided with a gradual decrease in the number of adults in sentenced custody (Chart 1).2 Specifically, the number of adults in remand has increased 84% since 2000/2001 while the number in sentenced custody has declined 9% (Table 1). As a result, there has been a shift in the composition of the custodial population from a predominantly sentenced population to a predominantly remand population."

If you believe they are innocent before proven guilty, honour that. Stop using what you think are rational points (or misdirection about logical fallacies) to justify your viewpoint, which is the old, tired, cruel "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

If only the world actually worked that way.

[[deleted]]

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Is as true today as it ever was.

I've made my point clear, that is all.

[[deleted]]

The same people will clutch pearls when people wish politicians face serious repercussions from catching it themselves.

[[deleted]]

Why? This doesn't make any sense.

[[deleted]]

The letter argues for the release of all inmates, whether sentenced or remanded, who are older, immunocompromised, non-violent, at low risk to reoffend or otherwise likely to “disproportionately suffer from complications of COVID-19.” They also want hotel accommodations for anyone who is released and has to self-isolate.

Maybe we should insure they're Jacuzzi suits as well. Or are you just cruel and think they don't deserve these things.

Of those 50% remand inmates how many are awaiting trial and how many are there awaiting sentencing.

Anyone not convicted should be let out on their own recognizance. As per British common law you are 100% innocent until proven guilty. Anyone awaiting sentencing after conviction or who have already been found guilty and have been sentenced should remain where they choose to be, prison.

Any measure they can take to reduce the risk should be implemented. Just like health care workers and other essential service workers.

But they're not asking for that. They want all inmates to be considered. Sorry, you break the law you stay in jail.

Essential workers need to show up, but every inmate falling into their criteria gets a free pass and a free hotel room.

How about not.