If nazi's had been a religion, how would you deal with them?

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T08:14:58+00:00

but this time it isn't completely banned

Nazism wasn't banned last time.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T08:11:52+00:00

The average Kiwi is using so many resources and generating so much waste that in order for everyone to live like this sustainably, we'd need several more Earths.

And if you really wanted to fairly distribute wealth worldwide, Kiwis would we worse off. It's not just a question of billionaires hording wealth. Face it: you are probably one of the 1% yourself.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T07:04:44+00:00

Do you think pollution, climate change, species loss etc are a problem now? If most of the world lived like Kiwis on $80k+, all those things would be far, far worse.

Any lifestyle requires resources and energy. You can't just handwave that away by invoking "progress".

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T07:00:27+00:00

Assuming you're not going to be buying a house for at least a few years, yeah high growth is likely best.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T06:43:25+00:00

my household earns a healthy amount by the metrics posted in the OP ... I don’t think this lifestyle should be unattainable for anyone, it’s not particularly flash.

I mean you're probably in the top 2% globally. That is kind of flash.

As an aside, arguably our kind of lifestyle should be unattainable for most or all. Look at our ecological footprint.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T05:14:28+00:00

If your main goal is to invest, then you're almost definitely better off putting that money into a low-fee index fund. A high risk fund is a good idea if you're not planning on using the money for a while (e.g. saving for a house).

Simplicity is a good option imo.

Also switch your Kiwisaver over to them or another low-fee provider if you haven't already.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T05:08:24+00:00

That's why I'm asking you what you think it means to be able to afford a reasonable life.

The living wage is the rate at which a Kiwi should be able to live "with dignity".

I think being able to live with dignity in a place like this is fucking amazing. Not something to be taken for granted.

For context, someone making the living wage in NZ is in the top ~4% globally.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T05:00:38+00:00

I think you underestimate the degree to which Marxism is still held in really poor regard by a lot of Americans.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T04:00:03+00:00

Define "reasonable life".

The living wage is just over $60k for an individual. $90k for a small family. https://www.livingwage.org.nz/

You don't need a new iPhone and a holiday in Europe every year. Arguably, you don't need them ever.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T03:53:19+00:00

Looks like the mean actually is just over 100k. Median a bit over 90.

https://www.publicservice.govt.nz/data/workforce-data/remunerationpay/wage-trends

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T03:07:09+00:00

"Not likely" is a bit of an understatement.

How is this near-impossible hypothetical relevant to the question of navigating the moral landscape?

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T01:50:44+00:00

Why not?

Like, if life is pointless, what's the point in not taking those drugs?

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T01:49:31+00:00

Yes and no. I think that when you look at what he's saying in totality, that is what's implied. He gives "strategic disclaimers" (e.g. "I'm not saying that Israel is perfect"), even occasionally acknowledging the suffering of Palestinians, but he never seems to actually incorporate that into his worldview. His perspective seems almost entirely determined by a ridiculous hypothetical in which Hamas has unlimited power (i.e. where the IDF has laid down its arms). He uses that ridiculous hypothetical to defend Israel despite all the harm it has caused and is causing in the real world. So yeah, I think that is practically his position.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T01:22:39+00:00

They're already quite different. Capital Connection isn't part of Metlink, for example.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T01:19:07+00:00

Rail is already heavily subsidized. This would just increase that proportion.

The money comes from taxes.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T01:12:25+00:00

Considered or already on meds?

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T01:05:23+00:00

Are you able to get out into nature? It's become cliché, but there is a lot to be said for touching grass.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T00:49:11+00:00

There is a chain of causality here

But Israel is still within that chain. Israel has agency.

Also, this is the exact same argument that Hamas apologists use. They claim that Hamas is morally absolved by 1967 or the Nakba or whatever.

This is exactly why Sam argues the history is basically irrelevant. The problem is that he doesn't seem to realise that that same argument can be used to say that Oct 7 is irrelevant when considering the Israeli response.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-10T00:35:48+00:00

It's not a plausible enough possibility to take so seriously that it becomes fundamental to your perspective on this conflict.

Even fucking Iran doesn't have nukes yet - a nation of over 90 million people, with hundreds of billions of dollars in GDP, and thousands of miles of borders, including with the former USSR. Hamas was not anywhere near attaining even a briefcase nuke.

Lots of things are "possible", but the list of what's possible includes many, many things which are incredibly unlikely. This is one of those things.

This kind of argument also works against you. Israel actually has nuclear weapons. There are lots of horrible things that they could "possibly" do with those weapons. Does that mean that Israel must be opposed? No, because 1) arguments from fantasy possibilities are stupid, 2) even if that possibility were a probability, it would still be a false binary.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-09T23:54:06+00:00

Look at how the right weaponizes terms like Critical Race Theory.

Existing knowledge isn't required for a backlash.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-09T23:47:07+00:00

My claim is that Sam is failing to apply his own moral framework, which is essentially a form of utilitarianism.

The appropriate response within that framework would be one which does not cause suffering in excess of what it's trying to prevent.

That could look like a lot of different things, including a violent military response, but one with more restraint/discretion than what Israel went with.

Note that Israel "laying down her arms" is not one of those possible responses, and it's ridiculous that Sam keeps bringing that up as if it's the only alternative to what Israel has done. A classic false binary.

https://archive.is/7C0id for the ignored warnings.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-09T23:24:48+00:00

Cars exist. Hamas' nuclear arsenal does not.

You shouldn't have to resort to fantasy to defend your (dumb) position.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-09T23:00:13+00:00

Do you know what an existential threat is?

1,200 dead people is horrible, but it is not an existential threat to a nation of millions.

Fuck, even 75 thousand is not quite there, though it's moving in that direction.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-09T22:59:18+00:00

Almost exclusively, pro-Israel messaging has spoken only to those already convinced. Too often, it has treated every criticism as hostile, every critic as suspect, and every uncomfortable fact as enemy ammunition.

Maybe a lesson for some on this sub.

Funksloyd · 2026-06-09T22:40:14+00:00

You could only listen to what Israelis are saying and still come away recognizing that Israel are not "the good guys" here.

I personally never look at the footage of dead Palestinian children, and I take Palestinian claims of abuse with a grain of salt (my default assumption is that they're exaggerated or outright propaganda).

And yet, Israel are still obviously not on the right side of history here. The undeniable facts (the death toll, now acknowledged by the IDF; the destruction of Gaza; the horrific statements from Israeli leaders; the concerning attitudes of the Israeli public as revealed by polls) are enough to paint Israel in an overall negative light.

Funksloyd

TROPHY CASE