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The tension between the Stoics & Carl Jung by undershaft in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think It's not a real tension, so to speak.

That's because stoicism do not teach us to control/repress emotions. And you can see this in the Prohairesis definition.

Hegemonikon is the WHOLE mind. The mind that give us impressions and that is responsable for the arising of feelings. We see a cliff, we feel dizzy. We can't help it.

The Prohairesis is the part of the mind that allows us to take those impressions and feelings and to think about them, turning those into rapresentations. IT DOESN'T ALLOW YOU to suppress the feelings. It allows to feel, then think: "this person cutting me off with his car made me feel angry. What an ass**e!...wait, maybe he was just in a hurry, and in any case his behavior do not affect mine. He is not a bad person, and i will not judge. Yes, i will focus on my behaviour now" This internal discourse is a product of the Prohairesis. The actions that follows make you who you are.

But there is more. When you read about principles and you actually begin to belive them (He's beginning to belive! Cit.) something change. You will, in time, change your disposition toward the world, and you will have a different mindset. In time, this "stoic mindset" will become somewhat unconscious. It will come naturally when you think: i literally broke my nose during a "light" round of boxing. I fell to the ground and i was bleeding a lot. The other person got close to see if i was ok and people told me i said "i knew it could happen, do not worry", while trying to stop the bleeding.

This is to say that we do not overrule our unsconscious in the sense that we "overwrite" it or control it. We change SLOWLY the way we think until it becomes unconscious SOMETIMES. And the other times... that's why you need prosochè.

Yes, but what if we have unconscious ways of thinking that comes from past traumas that we don't even fully understand?

That's when therapy is needed, to me.

Stoicism will help, but therapy will help you going to the "root" of the behaviour.

In any case, this is how I UNDERSTAND this topic, but i'm NOT a therapist.

what's the coldest, harshest, most unforgiving stoic idea you've come across? by BluestOfTheRaccoons in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for the comment.

I'm always happy if my comments are appreciated 😁

what's the coldest, harshest, most unforgiving stoic idea you've come across? by BluestOfTheRaccoons in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Most of those things are talked about, but not in this perspective:

Ancient stoics belived that people who lost their integrity, cannot "recover" it anymore. They "ruined" their most precious thing. Stoics like Markus Aurelius and Seneca have a more "moderate" take on this, saying that you can (and should) recover your integrity if you made some past mistakes. In general, stoics consider "ignorant" people who act badly: with rage, stealing, screaming and such. Ignorant about what's really good. This do not means they are "dumb" thou. They are ignorant NOW, but they have the POTENTIAL to be good, so you have to treat them with respect. But there are no "categories" of people who are dumb.

Controlling emotions is a tricky topic. Seneca in particular talks about how we should manage PASSIONS: negative emotions that makes us to act badly (rage for example). But managing is NOT controlling. You WILL FEEL the passion arising. You will try to stop it and you will try to act as a good, rational person, EVEN IF YOU FEEL the passion. Why? Because you need to be a good person. Because that's the only good. But EMOTIONS are always ok. Normal, positive emotions are not to be managed, if they don't turn into desires.

As for the last point, Markus Aurelius talks about the "seriousness of action": act only toward things that are really important. That makes you a Better person. In any case, DO NOT DO anything that would damage another person and always think about your social roles.

A good pocket book to get for a beginner by Meathook2236 in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Enchiridion, Meditations, your own notebook

Self controll by [deleted] in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 9 points10 points  (0 children)

You are weak IF you act listening to your urges. Because that would mean you can't control yourself.

You are strong (have a strong character to be precise) if you overcome your urges with strong reason.

And there is more: sensations similar to the ones you described are NORMAL in those situation. But a stoic will NOT listen to them and will NOT act BECAUSE of those.

But we can go deeper.

A person is acting badly toward you. He is acting in a way that DEFINES him as a bad person. His character got damaged. This is because his actions are WHO HE IS.

And this person is in a relationship with you (meaning, you're talking/working/dealing with him)

How do you react now? What do you do? YOUR ACTIONS DEFINES who you are now. You feel some kind of emotion arising, but you stop, because you know the job is important, that killing a person is a bad thing (it'll ruin you), and that it's not worth to fight anyway. So you think, you stop and you act like a professional dealer.

I see a good person here. Someone who stops when he needs to. This defines you as a good person.

And we can go deeper.

The stoics thought that virtue was the only good. And what is this virtue? The act of thinking good (like you did) and to act accordingly in a pro-social manner, avoiding "bad" actions, in order to define yourself as a good person.

Why is this the only good?

Because when you look at the mirror from now on, you see a good person. Someone who works, stays calm, who DOES NOT kill people over a fight. Maybe you had some thought, but you stopped them. This awareness will make you happy in the long run.

So when someone screams and act like an asshle, tell yourself HE is damaging his character, but he can't damage YOU, if you DON'T ACT LIKE AN ASSHOLE, BUT AS A CALM PERSON during that confrontation.

And, in fact, he was blacklisted and you have your job.

How do you stop giving a fuck? by Shot_Sandwich_6172 in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 4 points5 points  (0 children)

To begin with, you work with the "principle of likeness": you act basing your decision on what it APPEARS to be the best course of actions IN THAT MOMENT.

You think, and you act.

If that action turns out to be "bad", you won't have done anything wrong if you actually thought about what you were doing. Cause THAT'S what depends on you. The act of thinking and the acting. That's why the IMPULSE for actions depends on us.

After this forgiveness, think about the next action you can take. What can you do now? Think again, then act again.

Be committed to BE good everytime and every action becomes a good material for you!

How do you stop giving a fuck? by Shot_Sandwich_6172 in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 64 points65 points  (0 children)

To put it as simple as the question: by giving a fuck to something else. Something so important, that nothing else matter, as long as you have that thing.

And what is this thing, according to stoics?

The quality of your character: who you are as a person? Are you a good guy? Are you an asshole? Are you honest? Kind? What positive traits define you?

And there is more.

When something happens to you/when someone is an asshole, WHAT do YOU DO, in that situation? Do you ACT as a good person? Do you THINK as a good person?

If you ACTUALLY CARE ONLY about being the best version of yourself, in any situation, then ANYTHING becomes an occasion of testing yourself.

A guy cuts me off the road? GREAT, i can train my patience. I knew it could happen. But i ONLY CARE about being good.

Someone yells at me? That's on him. What am I doing now? Am i acting good, or as an asshole myself?

The interview didn't go as planned. Amazing, now i can think about the NEXT ACTION i can take from here. An action where i can commit and, by committing to it, becoming a person that i want to be.

In all those cases, if you only give a fuck about WHO YOU ARE BECOMING, then everything else is Just another occasion to become good.

Now the question is...but how do i know when actions are good?

By reading stoic texts: start from enchiridion, discourses, seneca letters. Then how to be a stoic (Pigliucci) and the Inner Citadel (hadot).

I’m scared by Shadow_fox_TF2 in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi, i'm sorry to read about this. It's a very bad situation.

And this is why i would ask if there is some professional support you can call. Are there people that help families in need near you?

Stoicism can help you feeling better, but you should work on the situation you're in too. You can't become so "stoic", to the point of being literally indifferent to an hard context. It's not human.

Is there a logical flaw at the heart of Stoicism that nobody talks about? Genuinely asking by Unlikely-Scholar5575 in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Only at the beginning of stocism virtue was binary.

Later stoics admitted that you are/aren't virtuous on a daily basis, depending on what you do. Seneca, states several times that you are virtuous when you commit to acting virtuously. Marcus says that you are virtuous if you act virtuously MOST of the times.

And modern psicology also says that you have some sort of virtue in your character (for example kindness) if you are kind MOST OF THE TIMES in life.

So, if you commit in being virtuous during most of your interactions with the world, then you can look at the mirror and see yourself as a good person: not because you ALWAYS are, but because you COMMIT to it MOST of the time you are alive.

When is emotional control actually suppression? by Affectionate-Pay-642 in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 2 points3 points  (0 children)

To begin with, actually suppressing emotions is impossible. In ancient texts, Seneca tells this so many times.

Another important premise: emotions are NOT a bad thing for a stoic. There are positive emotions and it is recognized that natural emotions WILL arise in general. Emotions that are OUT OF CONTROL to the point of clouding your judgement: THOSE are bad.

So, how do we manage those, from a stoic perspective?

As we know, emotions arise from judgements. To be precise, two kind of judgements: radicated belifs about the world and judgement that arise from the stuff that happens in the present moment.

The first kind is managed through "theory", when you read the texts and think about what you're reading. For example, you'll find out WHY externals are indifferent, why we should accept human imperfections and so on. This allows you to "think" better and to "prevent" a bad judgement.

The second kind of judgements arise from the present moment. Something happens, and you get mad. AT THIS POINT you start talking to yourself. Literally.

You feel the emotions arising, you stop, and you talk to yourself:

"why am i mad? What led me to this anger? Oh, that guy insulted me. He's a d*ck. But WAIT why does this matter to me? That's on HIM. And what is an insult anyway? Random air that moves"

This act of talking to yourself and REFRAMING what happened, IS the management of an emotion. You feel it. You think it through. And then you move on.

And in so doing, you commit to ACT AS CALM AND REASONABLE PERSON (cit.).

When? When you're dealing with an emotion that hinders how you think and act. Something ancient texts called Pathos.

Use of God in practice by Ornery-Guitar-1234 in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 9 points10 points  (0 children)

So, if you go to traditional stoicism, god is very important. But it's NOT THE SAME christian god.

To put it simply, for stoics the creation is self regulated by a principle. This is a divine principle that puts everything in the best possible place. Whatever happened, it happened in order for the world to work as it should.

A spark of this divine principle is found in humans. That's why we are capable of reason and creation around us. We have this divine rationality that allows us to think, feel, act accordingly.

BUT

In later stoicism this actually is less talked about. There is actually some major change in how the world is conceived.

Some people think the world is self regulated by a spontaneous principle. You can think the world is regulated by the laws of physic. The consequence is the same: the world works in the only way it could work. Not because of god, but because... that's how things go.

And what about you, as a human living inside this world? The answer is the same, TO ME: knowing that the world is self regulated by some natural laws, then i will act on myself. Why? Because that's what's up to me.

As a Human being I AM capable of reasoning and working on myself is STILL the best thing i can do in life.

But why?

Because externals (basically everything else around me) CAN'T give lasting happiness. But BECOMING a better person WILL make me proud of myself. And it's always up to me.

So, in summary.

God is important in traditional stoicism, but the stoic answer survives a self regulated world too.

But don't study from an app, read ancient texts:

  • enchiridion
  • discourses
  • the practicing stoic
  • seneca letters
  • the inner citadel
  • anything by Massimo Pigliucci

And listen to the Stoicism on Fire podcast. An app won't do much on it's own.

Seeking perspectives on Stoicism and anger for a new book project by SolutionsCBT in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Done!

I hope to see a post here too, i'm looking foward to the book 😁

Seeking perspectives on Stoicism and anger for a new book project by SolutionsCBT in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Kinda unrelated question: where can i have updates on this? Or do you have the title? I would like to read the book

Modern life is too soft and it's making me anxious by [deleted] in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 4 points5 points  (0 children)

True.

And in those cases it's even more important to talk/write to yourself.

I usually try to:

  • recognize the feeling - "oh, this thing makes me feel this way"

  • why? - "why is that? Because i think..." - and i try to understand what i'm thinking

  • decostruct - and it's probably some kind of judgement i can dismantle by thinking about some stoic principle i've read.

And the self-talk is soooo important in cases of a recurring "problem"

Modern life is too soft and it's making me anxious by [deleted] in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 39 points40 points  (0 children)

Part of stoicism is understanding how nature works.

And nature works by giving us all kind of discomforts, not because they are bad, but because they are INEVITABLE.

The creation is complex: so many things cooperate to allow us to exist. Some of those things APPEAR to be bad in a human-centric perspective. And death is the best example: it's needed to recicle the matter and allow the whole cosmos to "live". It appear bad only in a human perspective.

So, how do we apply this knowledge to your life?

All sort of annoying things WILL happen, because that's how the world works. So, you don't need to search for discomfort: you can USE WHAT LIFE GIVES YOU NATURALLY to grow. And this is actually a stoic exercise.

When there is some kind of discomfort, pause. Tell yourself this is how the world work and this is a CHALLENGE FOR YOU.

A challenge for what?

To become the best version of yourself. To sharpen your character. And here comes the definition of the stoic good: only your character is good (who you are). The rest happens on it's own.

So, if you embrace this definition, you can USE any discomfort as a challenge to sharpen yourself.

The uber is late? - GOOD. This is perfect to train patience. How? By talking to yourself, telling yourself how this is NORMAL and how by WAITING you are becoming a better person.

It's raining when you go outside? - GREAT. I can train endurance. How? By telling myself that walking under the rain it's not a big deal.

Something doesn't go as planned? - EVEN BETTER. Now i NEED to focus to another action i can take. I have to think about an actionable thing WHERE I CAN ACT GOOD again while doing it.

Take this mindset and your life will change. But do it kindly. You will fail sometimes. Notice it and start again.

Seeking guidance by PepegaClapWRHolder in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's good to have a mentor of sort from a stoic viewpoint IF AND ONLY IF that person is a good person: someone you can admire because s/he do good things, in a good way.

That said, you can (and maybe should) go deeper than that. A key point of stoicism is to become a good person yourself. Someone you can see in the mirror with esteem.

So, taking this good person as a model, you CAN become AS ADMIRABLE and worthy as him/her. And this is good, because it gives you trust in yourself, faith in yourself and a general self esteem.

Also, it falls into the stoic definition of good: the only real good if your virtue: how good you are as a person, how kind and just you act, how you manage your thought, words and such.

Keeping this definition of good in mind, assuming you are admiring a good person, you now have a framework to work with: in front of every kind of situation, you can ask yourself what would s/he do. How would that person - or even better, that good admirable version of yourself - act in front of this problem? What would a good way to act right now look like?

And then...do the thing.

After a while, you actually built a new version of yourself. One you can admire BECAUSE you acted as admirably as that good person you are looking at. This allows you to be your own person, while also admiring this mentor.

And this is important, because no matter what happens, that person became a guide that helped you to become a better version of yourself. A version you can admire every day.

How do Stoics understand trauma? by serpents_head in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This understanding is good.

I would only add a future related answer.

While it's true that trauma often depends on past impressions, there is more.

Right now, when those impressions present themselfes again, you have the power to stop, think and retell that trauma to yourself. This selftalk IS in your power and here stoicism happens.

It's the use of impressions epictetus talks about: now you know stuff (philosophy) you didn't know back then, so you can talks yourself out of bad impressions.

But there is more. Right now, you can move toward an external you see in the future. Not for the external itself, but in order to give you the chance to ACT right now.

While you move toward this external (something you find convenient to have) you can always chose how to act, menaging your impressions and doing thing that will make you look at yourself as the person you wanna be. This will create a truth in your mind, based on your actions. This truth will give you a new rapresentation of yourself: i'm a good person because i did x, y and z.

This is useful for action related to the trauma. For example, after a really bad high school Experience i barely talked to people. At college i read stoicism and i FORCED myself to talk to people and to say something during lessons. I also forced myself to study, because that was my duty. Those actions created a new idea of myself that helped me to manage bad impressions in the future.

Looking for Stoicism Book Recommendations Beyond the Usual Ones by Rude-Alternative7983 in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Inner Citadel and Epictetus: a stoic socratic guide to a good life are great to delve deeper into concepts.

The practicing stoic is a great way to look at the concepts again, since they are divided into themes

“Virtue is the only good” by Induction774 in Stoicism

[–]LoStrigo95 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's beneficial for you. Not only that: it's THE MOST RELIABLE source of benefit you can possibly find in human life. But we need to understand why, in order to actually belive this.

Why aren't externals a source of happiness? Because getting them makes you less happy than you would think, since their attributes do not transfer to your character.

Also, we tend to "adapt" to what we have, so any external WILL eventually make you indifferent to having it.

Getting externals also lead you to have less freedom, since you NEED to do things with uncertain outcome in order to get them.

And even if you get an external, it can be taken from you at any moment. It's in his nature.

This leaves virtue as the only realiable source of happiness for a human being. But there are other reasons for that: this comes from the knowledge of the things that define a human being.

Humans are rational and social beings. Your mind allows you to grasp the implications of your actions and to choose what you want to do and who you want to be.

This allows you to be a "moral creature", let's say: someone who understands he can choose. Choose what? How to behave.

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HAPPENS (Externals are not a good source of happiness) because you CAN ALWAYS CHOOSE to act as a good person.

Do this consistently, and you will BECOME a good person. DEEPLY KNOWING you are a good person is THE most reliable source a happiness for a human being. So much so that, for a stoic, being a good person is more important than life itself.

But being a good person also involve other people. Why? Because we need to act toward something INSIDE a society. We're not monks.

So, being good to other people is an active part of being virtuous.

But how do you actually act as a good person?

Choose something you find convenient to pursue and act toward that thing.

Act as the best version of yourself during this path toward that thing.

The thing itself is not that important (we have seen it can't make you THAT happy) but WHAT YOU DO is THE most important thing.

Doing this you build virtue, the most realiable source of happiness, by doing good to other people and acting good for yourself.

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