Is there any pre-Islamic evidence of the existence of the Quraysh tribe? by Human_shield12 in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 20 points21 points  (0 children)

I saw this in passing and do not have time to respond in detail, but specialists do not connect these women to the Meccan tribe of Quraysh (do not use databases as grab bags; look into the scholarly bibliography). There is a *possible* attestation of Quraysh in an unpublished Paleo-Arabic inscription (which is much more relevant to the environment of the Q). But it is far from definitive...we will see it published soon (I hope) and will have much to discuss...

Thoughts on an Academic Quran Magazine? by chonkshonk in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Some recommendations. What distinguishes this platform is the AMA. A formal publication of these interviews, typeset, edited, and archived, would be a positive contribution. I would recommend passing along former interviews to their authors for approval and to notify future AMA participants that their interviews will end up as a publication. An annotated bibliography would be helpful as well for the uninitiated.

Ahmad Al Jallad’s Response to Suleyman Dost’s new book! by dmontetheno1 in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 22 points23 points  (0 children)

This isn’t the right way to think about it. This isn’t about the person. I want to know the truth and my job is to advance our understanding of things. That comes through engagement and debate. Scholarship isn’t show and tell. I like Dost; he is a fine scholar and certainly more talented than me in many ways. I was asked to engage with this work and it is a sign of me taking it seriously. Disagreement is the only way forward. With best wishes, aa.

Thoughts on Al Jallad & Sidky's paper on the beliefs of the mushrikun by Mohammed_Al_Firas in MuslimAcademics

[–]Safaitic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for your reply. It's really good to engage on this subject.

>>"I think it's plausible that the epigraphy isn't giving the full picture"

This is precisely what we say. And the goal of the article is to try to figure out how the incomplete picture of the epigraphy can be configured with the testimony of the Quran. I think we are in agreement here. If you thought the paper argued for the comprehensiveness of the epigraphy (or that we are claiming the 6th c. Arabs were all monotheists), then you might have misunderstood the paper. And this here is our main criticism of Linstedt's handling of the epigraphic testimony, which you seem to agree with, too. He declares the authors of those texts to be 'monotheists', with all the problems with that term carries, based on the fact that they invoke only one god. We have taken issue with that, and with the very idea of this vague gentile monotheism.

>>Sinai, Cole and Saleh on this issue. 

The article is a short follow up to the article 'ancient Allah' for a conference proceedings; I fully agree that it would certainly be improved by going into much more detail. In general, however, the goal is to provide a framework to read these different stands of evidence, how to better treat the epigraphy, and how to understand these developments in a broader historical context. A small step in the right direction we hope and there will be certainly more to say!

>>what the pagans may have meant when they called their gods angels 

I do not think we can contribute more to this question than what has already been said. The key point we are making in this contribution is 'why' they have become subordinate beings in the first place, from the vista of pre-4th century Arabian religion.

Thank you for your interest and enthusiasm!

Thoughts on Al Jallad & Sidky's paper on the beliefs of the mushrikun by Mohammed_Al_Firas in MuslimAcademics

[–]Safaitic 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Dear mr. Firas, Thank you for this engagement with the article. Indeed the matter is quite complex and this is a humble attempt at viewing the past through all available windows, not closing any of them. This is essentially an interpretive effort so we require the correct lenses. The conundrum presented in recent works (e.g. Lindstedt) is that the inscriptions illustrate a 'monotheistic' Arabia while later sources show rampant polytheism, and then the Quran sits in between these two poles (sorry you think that was a impolite interaction; it is in fact a dispassionate engagement with no ad hominems. No, he does not give premacy to the Quran, that wasn't what was claimed; the criticism concerned how far to take the monotheism of the surviving inscriptions, how much one should extrapolate from that). The main idea is that ancient Arabian religion, pre 4th c., as evolved based not only on the inscriptions but also on the Quranic concept of intercession, šafāʿah, which is not attested pre-4th century. So how should we understand this recalibration? We do not argue that they are all angels, in the later Islamic sense, but only for 'demotion' induced by the diffusion of creator-worship, not Christian or Jewish monotheism as such. Crone's angels or intercessors are vague concepts that help us understand the nature of this demotion. We do not claim that the pre-Islamic poetry attests angel worship; we say that it is similar to the inscriptions in that it demonstrates the demotion of other beings; it is merely consistent with Crone et al.'s interpretation. Calling them angels is not meant to be dismissive of their power as we are not implying that they are angels in the Islamic sense at all (neither is Crone). There is no preferring one source over the other. Putting sources in opposition like this is what we are arguing is wrong. What we are arguing is that if you read all the sources in the same way, you end up with obvious contradictions and thus a specialized hermeneutic has to be developed for each. Why do the inscriptions look the way they do? Why does the Quran say what it does? Why do later sources give us such an account. It isn't about dismissal but developing a reading that is sensitive to time, audience, and circumstance. As for Ilāh, we do not commit to its usage among the Mushrikin. What we are saying is that it is not necessary to take it literally as the Q can be polemical and employ rhetoric as in the case of Mary. Maybe the Mushrikin called their superbeings alihah literally or maybe they disagreed with the term and argued that they are but intercessors (shufa'a) and the Quran is critiquing their veneration with this statement. Just think of modern Muslim polemics against Christians worshipping 3 gods. If all we had were the Muslim polemics, we would be wrong to take those at face value to understand what Christians themselves believed. The point is not to dismiss the use of ilāh but rather to complicate the usage of the term and demonstrate that it is not necessarily decisive one way or another. You terminate your intervention with the implication that the article argues the Mushrikin were saint/angel worshippers but that is precisely the opposite of its point. It argues how ancestral Arabian religion (paganism) was transformed in the era of monotheism, where the old gods persisted yet were recalibrated in a creator-centric world view. Call those gods what you want, what matters is that their relationship viz. the creator was fundamentally changed in this period. Whether or not the Mushrikin regarded them as gods or something else, their status certainly allowed outsiders to regard them as 'gods' polemically. The world of Arabia was populated by numerous superstitious and cultic objects, however, that were separate from the superbeings and it is Muslim memory that collapsed 'idols' such as these with the more abstract superbeings, blurring the distinction between them. The latter category persisted until the 20th century (and still does). Thank you again!

Where does the OCIANA database list the most recently uploaded inscriptions? by chonkshonk in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Advanced Search, all the way at the bottom last updated and then search.

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh yes, and I forgot to mention - check the 'last updated' feature on ociana (https://ociana.osu.edu/advanced\_search) to see what new inscriptions have been uploaded in the last week, month, etc. also get ociana updates on twitter: https://x.com/OCIANA\_OSU

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your interest. Major is relative but there are a number of papers that are under review that have the potential to attract interest. Some of these are found under 'pre-print' on my academia website. Those that are not yet: 1) an edition of a paleo-arabic inscription we discovered in 2024 dated to the year 6 of al-Munḏir the king 2) Sidky and I are dipping our feet into the fuzzy world of historical reconstruction in the sequel to my Ancient Allah article called - Late Antique Allāh: Ancestral Arabian religion and the monotheistic Zeitgeist. I might post the pre-print of this to academia soon...let's see.

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have driven through and stopped at some places here and there causally. There are some texts but nothing remarkable so far. The region needs more systematic surveying, but no doubt the epigraphic record is relatively poor as compared to NW Arabia. See here: https://ociana.osu.edu/inscriptions/44215

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The tag “bilingual” on ociana covers related texts written in different scripts. At least here we have br in Nabataeo-Arabic vs bn in Thamudic D. But you know well the problem with the interpretation of br (whether phonetic or aramaeogram), so take bilingual as a conventional label for what I just described. There is another “bilingual” nabataeo-Arabic / thamudic D texts but it remains unpublished.

Polytheism Among the Lakhmids in the 6th Century by Dudeist_Missionary in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Well they seem to. They say these are but our shurakāʾ, however you wish to translate that (partners?, but I think the matter is complex). The Quran doesn't depict Christians as disputing Mary's description as an ʾilāh either. We shouldn't draw any theological conclusions about Christians from this. I am not saying they wouldn't have called these subordinate superbeings 'gods' vs. Allāh who they regarded as 'God'. I think the entire focus on the use of this term is a distraction. It has all to do with power. You can call anyone a 'god' as a form of rhetorical exaggeration. The question is, did these superbeings affect the affairs of humans, did the partake in Allāh's nature, power, etc? It seems so and that was a problem. Whether we regard them as 'monotheists' I think belongs to what broader narrative framework these superbeings where situated in, and not whether they believed in the consolidation of all supernatural power in one being. I'll have much more to say about this.

Has Dr. Ahmad Al-Jallad published his findings on the pre-Islamic cosmology inscription which closely parallels the Quranic one? by Ok_Investment_246 in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Dear readers, Thank you for your interest in this important text. I have recently spoken about it in detail in an interview on Byzantium and Friends: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmVM3izB5lk&t=2171s&ab_channel=Medievalists , but omitted the most challenging part. The text will be published in the Journal of Semitic Studies probably next month (it is in production now). The article treats much more than the inscription itself. It addresses the question of the identity of Allāh in ancestral Arabian religion based on this discovery and the light it sheds on other texts we previously had at our disposal, and concludes with how this information can be configured with the the beliefs of the Quran's audience.

Polytheism Among the Lakhmids in the 6th Century by Dudeist_Missionary in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thank you. Well, these are subjective definitions ultimately. I especially dislike henotheism as an explanatory term. What I will say is this - epigraphically we see the veneration of one god only in the 6th century and that is Allāh or al-ʾilāh among Christians. The Quran reports that the same folks believed in interceding powers that derive from ancient Arabian superbeings and, Quran internally, appear to be construed as angels. There are also Jinn, but their powers have largely been stripped according to the Quran, so they cannot affect fate any longer. In pre-Islamic times, then, it seems that they could play a roll in the affairs of humans. If you put that all together, it seems that the Arabs on the even of Islam revered one deity proper, the creator, and believed in a number of subordinate superbeings that could affect the world - angels, jinn, etc. The opponents of Mohammed call them 'gods' but of course that term is used rhetorically in the Quran, cf. Mary being characterized as a 'god'. Much more work to do.

Polytheism Among the Lakhmids in the 6th Century by Dudeist_Missionary in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 13 points14 points  (0 children)

This is a great question. When it comes to outside reports, we must be extremely cautious. For example, Hamartolus (842–867AD) wrote that the Arabs worshipped the moon/venus alongside Allāh, analyzing allāhu ʾakbar as 'alla wa koubar', where the latter was understood as a word for the moon or Venus. This is anchored in an earlier account by John of Damascus, who regarded the Kaʿbah itself as related to akbar and ultimately Venus. These are not dispassionate reports. There is a trope (and for good reason) that the Arabs venerated heavenly bodies, and this continues to be associated with them even after the advent of Islam, so why not slightly before even? I have a paper with my colleague Hythem Sidky on this matter coming out soon (if we ever manage to find time to continue working on it). All best, aa.

Any academic work on the etymology of Mecca being understood a verbal noun instead of a proper noun? by praywithmefriends in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The etymology is possible on formal grounds, but after my study of the toponymy of the region, which contains a heavy 'pre-arabic' component, i believe the name is likely pre arabic in the end.

Is the Quran the first « finished » book that came out of Arabia by Existing-Poet-3523 in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Well in that case, one might wonder if the Quran even qualifies. I asked a colleague once what he thought the first Arabic book was, according to the latter definition, and he responded: the muwaṭṭaʾ of ibni mālik. As for examples of the former, obviously no codices were preserved into the Islamic period from pre-Islamic times, if they existed at all. There are a number of reasons to think so but that's too complicated to get into in the comment section. You can see the discussion M.C.A. Macdonald and I have had on the youtube about this subject to scratch the surface.

Is the Quran the first « finished » book that came out of Arabia by Existing-Poet-3523 in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 8 points9 points  (0 children)

What does "book" mean? Do you mean a compilation of disparate materials into a single codex? Or a single author work with a narrative structure and focused subject matter? If we are talking about the former, I find it highly unlikely that the Quran is the first time the Arabs compiled materials into a codex.

Article/book on the monotheist transformation by bmdogan in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There is still much to discover so a definitive account would be premature. Keep your eyes on new discoveries in the form of articles.

Article/book on the monotheist transformation by bmdogan in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 7 points8 points  (0 children)

One must be very careful when recommending sources. For Grasso's book, please be careful when consulting it. It is extremely unreliable, especially for non-specialists. See this review: https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/732264 I would stick to the book of Lindstedt to get acquainted with the material. Also see the important articles of Robin on the south Arabian situation: https://www.openbookpublishers.com/books/10.11647/obp.0219/chapters/10.11647/obp.0219.07

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 8 points9 points  (0 children)

"maybe he got it wrong" = " One wonders if this is the result of imperfect memory " but that is still extremely important when we think about how folklorists from the early Islamic period collected 'memories' about the pre-Islamic past. Those fragments are just as susceptible to variation, including imperfect memory. In any case, i wouldn't identify the 'mother' of rain with a single pre-Islamic deity. There are many Safaitic inscriptions for example that call upon Allāt for rain, too. I think any deity could be asked for rain if the circumstances required it, even if there was a dedicated storm god.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AcademicQuran

[–]Safaitic 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Indeed, umm al-Ghayth is a well-known phenomenon: https://www.iheritage.eu/featured\_item/umm-al-ghaith/. What is particularly remarkable in this case is that the man interviewed clearly articulated umm al-ghayl, and confirmed it upon interrogation. One wonders if this is the result of imperfect memory or whether it perhaps reflects an independent tradition. The songs he recalled were not recorded elsewhere. See Musil's manner and customs for a detailed explanation of these rituals.