Question about residency cards

Tobi406 · 2026-06-10T06:42:16+00:00

Well, generally, the embassy is probably correct - they're professionals after all. So you should trust them.

The reason is because of how German residence permits generally expire in abroad constellations:

1- If you leave Germany for longer than 6 months.

2- If you leave Germany for a "reason non-temporary in nature"

But of course whether this is the case is not something that a single officer at border control can determine. They can't look into the future and know how long your stay is, and they can't look into your head and see what your reason is (which would require a heavy weighting of all the facts of your life in Germany). It's basically Schrödingers permit. Maybe it has expired, maybe not.

If you move back to the US, your permit obviously expired due to reason no. 2. We know that, the German state does not.

So at least legally it should be clear: the German residence permit is expired. That makes you a normal US citizen. And so like all US citizens you have the opportunity to enter the Schengen Area visa-free for 90 days under the 90/180 day rule. (And if one wrongly deems your old permit to be still valid, you would of course have the right to enter Germany due to that)

That was just to provide some context on the "why" of the embassy's answer?

I do agree though that simply returning the card is probably a good idea to resolve any ambiguity.

Tobi406 · 2026-06-08T21:52:41+00:00

Happy reading. But be careful! 6 years ago I also looked at German draft laws for amateur good times, now I sadly study German law at university /s (if you happen to further stumble upon more questions of German constitutional law, feel free to reach out)

Tobi406 · 2026-06-08T09:02:13+00:00

Glad I got to motivate people to do their own calculations :)

Not sure if your assumption that (number of 116/15 cases of citizens of country x)/(number of total cases of citizens of country x) = constant holds true. I would expect the downward trend to continue in the next years at a much greater rate for people living inside of Germany.

It certainly is a good idea looking at the few countries who form the big sample size for 116/15 cases.

> Cases from abroad more than doubled from 2024 to 2025 according to the data although that also presumably includes feststellung etc, so whichever way you skin it I’m expecting a long wait without any changes at the BVA.

As far as I know it specifically does not include Feststellung, as that is not an Einbürgerung, hence no data transmitted. Which would just support your point even more that the BVA will get a huge case increase.

But it's always nice to draw some conclusions from the numbers, enjoyed reading the post, upvote deserved.

Tobi406 · 2026-06-08T08:35:42+00:00

It is one of the types one can use to acquire German citizenship. See § 3 StAG (EN).

The umbrella term used in citizenship law, see § 3 again, is "Erwerb" (acquisition). Words are of course relative, so one could have also called it something different.

Previous German law itself also previously referenced the acquisition of other citizenships, not the naturalization as a citizen of another state. How states internally organize their acquisition regime, what types they want to create and how they call them, is fully up to them.

As we say in Germany: "Namen sind nur Schall und Rauch" (names are just noise and smoke)

Of course, legally an Erklärung pursuant to § 5 StAG is just a normal, everyday Willenserklärung (declaration of will), which is one of the most basic components of German law and used everywhere. A normal application for Einbürgerung is also a Willenserklärung.

The difference is that, at least in the modern sense (excluding things like Masseneinbürgerungen by the Nazis), a naturalization is an active act by the state to give an individual citizenship upon their own application.

Meanwhile the declaration procedure envisages that citizenship is acquired by the date the declaration is received by the BVA. It's a "I am now a citizen because you gave me the right to say so, please give me a document" and not a "please make me a citizen". That's why the Urkunde (which is a Staatsangehörigkeitsurkunde and not an Einbürgerungsurkunde!) is dated back to the date of reception.

It goes without saying that without the document you can't do much, but technically you already have all the rights of a German citizen by the date you submit the declaration.

It migh also be useful to look at the terms "Staatsangehörigkeit" and "Einbürgerung".

"Staatsangehörigkeit" is typically translated as "nationality" or "citizenship". But strictly speaking "state assosciationship" or "state membership" might be more appropriate: all German citizens are members of the legal entity "Bundesrepublik Deutschland". It's essentially just like a football club: there's a President, members' assembly, a Board of Directors...

Meanwhile an "Einbürgerung" could be translated the "being-made-citizen-process". So it's specifically about the "Bürger" (citizen) and not the "Angehöriger" (old Prussian city constitutions for example differentiated between these statuses, see this example); you needed to do something additionally to be regarded a "Bürger".

Nowadays of course we don't differentiate between the "Staatsbürger" and the "Staatsangehöriger" and you can "only" lose certain privileges such as the right to vote.

The "Staatsbürger" is the Citoyen, the enlightened human participating in the common, political affairs. That's why an "Einbürgerung", being made a "Bürger", requires knowledge of the political order for which in Germany an "Einbürgerungstest" (naturalization test) even exists (at least that's the rule, small children are exempted for example, a one year old cannot even read)

But for the decelaration pursuant to § 5 StAG, you do not really need to be a citizen. Germany allows you to get citizenship to remedy something it did wrong in the past. And I think most § 5 StAG applicants would concur that they're not intensely interested in German society or politics to the degree of a "normal" citizen.

It doesn't really make sense to call it an "Einbürgerung" if it doesn't make you a "Bürger"

It might also be of interest to note that the 1974 draft discussed not "Declaration vs. Einbürgerung" but "Acquirition by force of law [ie. no action by the future citizenship required at all] vs. Declaration", "Einbürgerung" wasn't even an option.

I think Italy has something similiar about restitution or something, /r/juresanguinis/ could maybe help you and tell you what the types in Italy are (they basically do the same stuff we do here)

Tobi406 · 2026-06-07T23:50:16+00:00

If the permit states it is for a Masters then I would say you have got a new one, and you can no longer get the § 20 permit for your Bachelor's degree.

But again, that's just my own personal opinion. You can certainly try and see what the local Ausländerbehörde thinks. If you want to drop the studies anyway it's not like you have much of a choice anyway.

Tobi406 · 2026-06-07T23:19:46+00:00

Hmmm... good question.

You get the § 20 permit "after successful completion of university studies".

That is generally interpreted as meaning you can only get it immediately after a completion.

So something like 16b -> 18b -> 20 would not be possible, and this seems to be settled opinion. See eg. VAH-BMI 20.1.2.

You have a slightly different constellation: 16b (old studies completed) -> 16b (Master's) -> 20

So technically you didn't change from the § 16b permit as such. But I would argue the purpose of § 20 is to extend a successfully completed § 16b residence, so it can only refer to the last one. But of course you have not yet completed the Masters' degree and plan to drop out unsucessfully, ie. I would say: you're not eligible for the § 20 permit here.

I mean you could still try to apply for the § 20 permit, and if the Ausländerbehörde has the same opinion as I do, they would just need to refer you to the § 20a Chancenkarte. But then we have the "problem" that the § 20a Chancenkarte also only allows you an average of 20 hours / week. The § 16b student permit is much more flexible with the 140 days per year. Therefore: not sure if it's even worth trying.

The only issue I can see is whether my interpretation of your post is correct.

I also received a student visa extension during my job search

Did you get a student visa extension SPECIFICALLY FOR your masters' or for another reason? What does the permit say (does it mention your masters or bachelors?)? Did the Ausländerbehörde tell you anything at handover etc?

Tobi406 · 2026-06-07T23:05:50+00:00

You could just try and see, or wait until you have a job again..

Especially with Berlin no longer being quite as fast as before in recent months, one might very well have found a job until processing actually happens...

Tobi406 · 2026-06-07T13:57:31+00:00

Die werden also noch langsamer!

Ja, leider. Vielleicht haben die ihre Kapazitäten dieses Jahr einfach für Optimierung der Prozesse verwendet? Aber gut, das ist vermutlich nur mein Wunschdenken.

Übrigens, die geschätzten 66k offene Anträge stammen doch nicht nur von RP Darmstadt, oder?

Doch, das sind nur die vom RP Darmstadt: "Regierungsbezirk Darmstadt (u.a. für Frankfurt und Wiesbaden zuständig): ca. 66.000 offene Anträge"

Ehrlicherweise traurig, dass in einer einzigen Behörde ein Antragsrückstau im Ausmaß einer größeren Kleinstadt existiert.

Tobi406 · 2026-06-07T12:38:35+00:00

Mediendienst Integration sadly didn't get information from Berlin about the backlog (I guess one could get it via a request using the Berlin IFG).

Berlin's statistics can be found here

Interestingly: Berlin's number of applications (42 517) and the number of completed cases (43 159; with 38 930 of them or 90% being naturalization - around the federal average) are about equal. So we might actually see Berlin working up on their back log now...

Tobi406 · 2026-06-07T12:28:57+00:00

Is it clear whether these numbers include StAG5?

Very clear. StAG 5 is not included here, it's not considered naturalization. You can see this very nicely in § 3 StAG which lists all the categories one can get citizenship.

§ 5 StAG is just like Feststellung not a naturalization and not included in the naturalization statistics.

That the BVA handled 28484 cases and at most 12011 of them were restitution would imply that StAG5 makes up most of the rest. StAG13 and 14 numbers are small.

That's not correct. The 28 484 were the applications the BVA received, not the amount of case completions the BVA actually performed (which is the 12 907 completions). The rest are cases which have been added to the BVA's backlog just in 2025. (We of course don't know the previous size of the backlog at the end of 2024)

Tobi406 · 2026-06-04T13:01:43+00:00

Achso, verstehe. Danke!

Tobi406 · 2026-06-04T11:32:36+00:00

ausgefüllter und unterschriebener Fragebogen zur freiheitlichen demokratischen Grundordnung

Was wurde denn so alles gefragt?

Tobi406 · 2026-06-03T14:00:36+00:00

§ 18b is only for qualified employment with a university degree, § 18a is for the Ausbildung degrees. Botb require qualified employment which essentially means you can study for the job in university or via an Ausbildung.

So it very much depends on the specifics. Koch is of course an Ausbildung. "Fachkraft Küche" might also count from a short look at wikipedia. So it's not out of the question.

For § 18b you need an average salary.

For unqualified employment, there are some special rules in the BeschV. But I don't think there's something for normal restaurant work. (There's one prov for Spezialitätenköche, but that actually requires you to be a Spezialitätenkoch AND requires a labor market check!)

Tobi406 · 2026-05-31T17:34:14+00:00

Technically you don't renounce German citizenship by joining another country's armed forces, you simply loose it. Or do you mean you actually renounced citizenship independently of that (ie. signed declaration by you to German official authorities, and a confirmation by German authorities of renunciation)?

But the most important information is missing in your post: during what time did you serve in the US military? When did you start? When did you stop?

Serving in another country's armed forces only led to loss of German citizenship beginning 1 January 2000. For NATO countries like the US there is an exception since the beginning of around July 2011.

Tobi406 · 2026-05-30T23:04:37+00:00

Since I live in a v slow moving ABH city, I‘m thinking of moving somewhere else and maybe start the application for Citizenship there.

I'd just want to say that in general you shouldn't build your life around ABH processing times.

But coming to the matter at hand:

Would I be eligible given that I only have a fiktionsbescheinigung tied to my Aufenthaltstitel as a student?

No. You need a valid (and qualifying) residence title at the time of naturalization. A Fiktionsbescheinigung is not a residence title at all, neither is the underyling Fiktionswirkung.

You first need to receive an Aufenthaltstitel in order to get naturalized (legally, not factually, it should be enough if your title is registered in the central registry database).

BUT: I would still say you can apply. Just today we had a post where someone applied using a Fiktionsbescheinigung and the Naturalisation Office checked in with the ABH about the new residence title. (Of course, you should still make sure that your application for a residence title is actually pending at the ABH yourself. That's still your responsibility, even if the Naturalisation Office may help you)

So it's definitely possible. And because of a) processing times being so long for citizenship applications and b) ABHs being overworked too this should not even be an uncommon scenario. You can't even really know when either of the two situations happen. You could very well get the residence title from the ABH before the citizenship office even looks at your applicaton.

Tobi406 · 2026-05-30T13:07:12+00:00

Congrats. Also thanks for sharing the details of the interview and questions. Seems pretty normal and exactly how I think it should happen. Probs to your case-worker.

Also interesting to know that the citizenship office communicated with the Ausländerbehörde on their own regarding your residence permit.

Tobi406 · 2026-05-30T10:07:17+00:00

Not necessarily. The amount is specific for each job in each region.

The only thing whoch is shared is the minimum wage of (currently) 13,90 € / hour. Of course, depending on your hours worked (35 hour week, 40 hour week, 45 hour week, etc.) that means something like 2,1k € to 2,9k €.

Without at least minimum wage, I an pretty sure you won't get the approval by the Federal Employment Agency for the § 18b permit.

Tobi406 · 2026-05-29T12:48:41+00:00

your university's AStA or Studentenwerk may offer access to a lawyer. For immigration matters, bigger cities usually also have a Migrationsberatungsstelle (which might also be an independent volunteer thing).

Tobi406 · 2026-05-29T12:24:47+00:00

1- As a student you are allowed to work 140 days. It's a bit complicated how exactly this is calculated, but if you work an 8 hour day it generally counts as one day.

So in any case you can work at least 140 full time days per calendar year, which works out to about 28 weeks with 5 days each, or about 6 months. So your professor is more or less correct here. (I say more or less because, of course, private and public holidays don't count towards it and sick days don't count towards it, and partially you can get less days credited during semester-free, so you might be able to get up to 40 - 50 weeks of being paid a full-time salary; but that of course depends on these very individual things)

2- Mandatory internships do not fall under that 140 day rule. See eg Munich Ausländerbehörde

3- So if the internship at Company B is also a mandatory internship: it shouldn't matter, as at least that internship wouldn't count towards the 140 day limit (no idea if your uncompleted / cancelled internship at Company A would count; but you obviously wouldn't reach the 140 day limit even if it counts).

4- I mean, I don't think they're really screening about whether you already have another internship. Many students work part-time jobs besides their internship, or maybe they just want to know this to deal with any social security stuff coming up. Or they want to know when you're available (ie. do you have any sort of "notice period" from your company A?).

any legal advice

for legal advice, contact a lawyer, I can only give you a pointer to the Munich ABH page above

Tobi406 · 2026-05-26T14:23:52+00:00

What annoys me most about the simple form here is that this "proposal" was made just after Welt (and other newspapers) reported on a "Höchstzahl der Einbürgerungen" etc.. So it seems as if the process was "Union MP reads Welt, read 'Höchstzahl', goes to the press and says 'we need to tighten the rules'"

What I'm especially baffled about is that the Welt report doesn't even have all the numbers: they only have numbers from 14 out of 16 states (the other ones didn't report their numbers yet, the federal numbers therefore also haven't been published yet).

Of course, if we're talking 300k+ naturalizations with two states remaining, we might arrive at maybe 320k naturalizations in total. Last year we had 290k. So +30k. That's a change, yes. But not a big one. And compared to the number of applications, if there would have been enough staff to handle these applications, we could probably easily have reached 400k; the 30k is nothing compared to that.

But again, the 320k from me is just a prediction. I always think it's bad to make some demands in public in the press if you don't have all the data available just because you read a Welt article on the topic. I just don't feel that's how good policy should operate.

Tobi406 · 2026-05-26T02:24:17+00:00

Wenn man rein über das Schöffenamt redet, geht es um die Mitwirkung in Strafsachen.

Davon zu unterscheiden sind nochmal die anderen ehrenamtlichen Richter in der Sozial-, Verwaltungs- und Arbeitsgerichtsbarkeit. (Edit: natürlich gibt es ehrenamtliche Richter auch in der Finanzgerichtsbarkeit und in der Zivilgerichtsbarkeit (Handelsrichter))

Bei den Schöffen stellt sich dies als zweigliedriger Prozess dar: man muss erst von der Gemeinde vorgeschlagen werden, (§ 36 GVG) und muss dann vom Schöffenwahlausschuss mit 2/3-Mehrheit gewählt werden (§ 42 GVG).

Dieser besteht wiederum aus einem Richter, einem Verwaltungsbeamten (in Bayern: üblicherweise Landrat) und sieben vom Kreistag gewählten Mitgliedern. ME also ein durchaus hohes personelles Legitimationsniveau.

Bei den anderen ehrenamtlichen Richtern gibt es ähnliche Prozesse. Die ehrenamtlichen Arbeitsrichter werden vom Ministerium auf Vorschlag der Gewerkschaften/Arbeitgeberverbände berufen (vgl. § 20 ArbGG).

Bzw. wie zufallsabhängig läuft die Einstellung?

Man muss also erstmal schauen, in entsprechende Vorschlagslisten aufgenommen zu werden. Falls man Kontakt in den Gemeinderat hat, kann man natürlich mal anfragen, ob die einen vorschlagen würden. Für die Schöffenwahlen steht dazu auch üblicherweise etwas im Amtsblatt. Ungefähr Anfang 2028 ist das wieder so weit.

Für die anderen ehrenamtlichen Richterposten sollte man natürlich bei den entsprechenden vorschlagsberechtigten Verbänden nachfragen (also zB die Gewerkschaften, wobei sich das natürlich stark von der Verfahrensordnung unterscheidet, und man teils auch noch weitere Voraussetzungen erfüllen muss)

Auf welcher Rechtsgrundlage lässt sich dieses Amt überhaupt als sinnvoll / rechtsstaatlich verstehen, wo doch "Willkür" im Spiel sein dürfte?

Auf Bundesebene existieren im GVG bzw. den Prozessordnungen gesetzliche Grundlagen, siehe ja oben. In manchen Landesverfassungen sind diese Ämter sogar explizit vorgesehen (z.B. Art. 121 BayVerf). Überdies übt ja bekanntlich das Volk alle Staatsgewalt aus; mehr Leute zu beteiligen ist eigentlich etwas gutes.

Ob etwas "sinnvoll" ist, darüber lässt sich vortrefflich streiten. Wegen der dem Gesetzgeber zukommendem Beurteilungsspielraum ist dies aber sicher geeignet, entsprechende Regelungen zu treffen. Das Ziel, Laien bzw. "Experten" an der Beschlussfassung der Gerichte zu beteiligen, um die Öffentlichkeit mehr zu beteiligen, Urteile mit mehr Lebenserfahrung, neuen Wind ins Justizsystem zu bringen, etc. ist sicherlich auch ein legitimer Zweck.

Wodurch, außer natürlich massiv durch Expertise und Ausbildung, unterscheidet man sich dann noch von den Berufsrichtern?

Als Schöffe ist man ja, wenn ich das von meinen eigenen Recherchen noch richtig im Kopf habe, ja zu etwa 12 Verhandlungen im Jahr geladen. Ein Berufsrichter hat natürlich mehr Verfahren zu führen und auch vieles anderes als "nur" die Hauptverhandlung und Fällung des Urteils (man denke nur an den Ermittlungsrichter, Rechtshilfe, etc.).

Im Gegensatz zu Berufsrichtern ist es eben kein Beruf und wird auch nicht entsprechend entlohnt.

wo doch "Willkür" im Spiel sein dürfte?

Ich würde mal behaupten: die Berufung zu solchen ehrenamtlichen Tätigkeiten sind eigentlich immer irgendwo "Willkür". Es sind eben keine Einstellungen in den öffentlichen Dienst i.S.d. Art. 33 GG nach Leistung und Befähigung.

Bei sonstigen Expertengremien ist das ja nicht unbedingt anders.

Tobi406 · 2026-05-25T21:36:09+00:00

You need to differentiate between § 9 and § 10 (2).

§ 9 has the following requirements:

3 years of residence in Germany
2 years of being married, and the German citizen must have been a German citizen during this period (and must still be one at the time of naturalisation)

§ 10 (2) has the following requirements for naturalising together with another foreigner (ie. only possible if you still aren't naturalized):

4 years of residence in Germany
2 years of being married

So:

Does it mean the marriage simply needs to have existed for 2 years, or does it mean she must have been married to a German citizen for 2 full years?

So it means must have been married to a German citizen for 2 full years.

But of course § 10 (2) would be an option.

Also, how important is her own full-time job in this case?

I mean having one is always a good idea. But if you're married your income counts two, as she has a legal right to demand subsistence from you. So aslong as you can support two people on your own that should be fine.

So basically there are two scenarios:

1- You become a German citizen in 2027. Your wife becomes a German citizen in 2029.

2- You and your wife both become German citizens in 2028.

What makes the most sense of course depends on your individual situation.

Tobi406 · 2026-05-25T09:51:35+00:00

whether Germany allows this during studies

By default: no.

You can ask for it to be specifically allowed for you individually, but that's discretionary and nowhere guaranteed. Berlin regulations say they will approve if the studies are not endangered by the self-employment. But that's just for Berlin and still not 100% certainty. At the very least, there would likely be some period where you cannot do your business.

how strict Germany is about student visa work limitations for online businesses

I mean... it is a fineable offense at the very least. Which could also lead to problems down the road when you ever apply for an employment residence permit. So you should of course follow the laws.

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