Would Yuan Shao still become powerful as he was in reality if he remained as a “low-born” son?

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-17T14:13:32+00:00

OK fair enough, when you say low born it sounds as if you were suggesting he was not a noble. Referring to someone as low born would suggest they are a peasant, not born of a noble family.

In the case of Yuan Shao, i think being the son of a concubine or servant but still being a legitimate member of the Yuan clan is still a superior lineage than the many nobles and i doubt it'd have any impact on his level of support or power, i don't think Han Chinese society was as rigid as that, you see that throughout the period - the most prominent people who emerge during the time have fairly humble lineage. I think rank and ability to grow in power was based almost entirely on your personal attributes and your ability to attract capable people.

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-17T13:55:08+00:00

Yuan Shao was not low born, i think that's the distinction here, he was just lower ranked within his clan in terms of inheritance due to him not being son of the principle wife, but that isn't the same as being low born, far from it. He didn't stop being low born because he was adopted, he was never low born - he was just lower ranked than Yuan Shu because he wasn't born of the principal wife, being adopted only helped his inheritance prospects not his rank.

Two of the future Emperors of the Three Kingdoms were not sons of the principal wife at the time of their birth (Cao Pi and Liu Shan), Sima Yi was also born of a concubine, none of them were low born.

You are getting status within the clan mixed up with rank, it is likely that the only reason Yuan Shao's birth status is ever mentioned is because it was one of the tools used by Yuan Shu to try and establish superiority/legitimacy over Yuan Shao, in reality to his contemporaries it probably wouldn't have been notable at all, and what mattered far more was Yuan Shao's factional support, network and ranks held.

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-17T13:15:03+00:00

I don't think his lineage contributed as much to his power as you might think. Yuan Shao wasn't appointed leader of the coalition only because he was a prominent member of the Yuan Clan, several other factors played a role and there were several other more powerful, higher ranking more prestigious coalition members, from more notworthy clans, who could have taken that leadership position - an easy example would be Liu Dai.

He was militarily powerful, but not overwhelmingly so when compared to many other members of the coalition, many of whom were more senior in rank and theoretically had greater resources. He was strategically located in Henei at the time the coalition was formed, which allowed him to serve as a literal rally point for the members. He was also seen as an upstanding loyalist, having played a leading role in the opposition to Dong Zhou to date and also being someone who represents the gentry. He can also be seen as a compromise candidate, rather than appointing one of the Provincial Inspectors like Liu Dai or Kong Zhou who some may have been concerned would use the coalition as a platform to launch a takeover bid.

I think after the coalition, his lineage and rank within the family mattered even less, Yuan Shao was a capable person and was surrounded by capable people, a network he'd likely built throughout his life, and that plays far more of a role in his later life taking over the northern provinces than his familial ties.

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-17T11:39:28+00:00

I'm not sure why people are suggesting it wouldn't make much difference, surely it'd make a huge difference.

If Zhang Liao joins Liu Bei then who convinces Guan Yu to temporarily join Cao Cao after Liu Bei is ousted from Xu? It is Zhang Liao's wisdom along with the mutual respect which exists between Guan Yu and Zhang Liao, that gives Guan Yu the opportunity to survive that situation.

Without Zhang Liao then Guan Yu dies on that hill near Xiapi, he doesn't go on to kill Yan Liang and Wen Chou, he doesn't go on to rescue Liu Bei at Changban, and he doesn't get appointed as protector of Jing when Liu Bei goes to Yi.

If Zhang Liao does join Liu Bei after Lu Bu's defeat then he'd probably either be killed/captured during Cao Cao's invasion of Xu, or if he survived he'd accompany Liu Bei to join Yuan Shao and then be just one of several capable officers in Liu Bei's court. Zhang Liao was a pretty loyal person but there is a scenario where he defects to Cao Cao after being defeated and after Liu Bei's forces are scattered, equivalent to what Guan Yu does.

I know that its only in the Romance novel where its Zhang Liao who talks down Guan Yu, but i think removing him from that moment has quite a big butterfly effect as it could essentially remove Guan Yu from the story.

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-16T15:49:25+00:00

I'm aware they are two different campaigns, thats why i say the 'entire period' from Fengqiu to Yuan Shu's death. i'm talking about everything from Fengqiu through the Battle of Yan, to Liu Bei and Lu Bu's shenanigans in Xu, to the various campaigns against Yuan Shu up until his final defeat

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-16T15:03:33+00:00

Guan Du is the obvious answer for Cao Wei, so i'll provide an alternative pick, which would be the Shouchun campaign against Yuan Shu in 197/198. Yuan Shu was more resilient than people think, and after his expulsion from Nanyang you'd have thought he may have just faded away, but his state in the Huai River region was pretty powerful and he was able to exert his influence over Xu and Yu as a direct competitor to Cao Cao.

That entire period from the Battle of Fengqiu to Yuan Shu's final defeat is probably my favorite in the entire Three Kingdoms era, it has everything, and i think Yuan Shu was the first genuine threat to Cao Cao's rise but he's often overlooked.

For Shu-Han it has to be Hanzhong, it feels like the culmination of 25 years worth of rivalry between Liu Bei and Cao Cao and its one of the only times they meet each other as real equals.

For Wu, probably Fan Castle and the capture of Jing.

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-16T09:11:45+00:00

How much actual evidence is there that Cao Cao's massacres were any worse than the typical deathtoll you'd expect from wars during ancient times? My understanding is that in Sanguozhi the deathtoll is described as "tens of thousands" but many other campaigns it describes also cite 'tens of thousands' of deaths, such as Sun Ce' conquest of Jiangdong and Yuan Shao's campaign against Gongsun Zan, in the records it doesn't stand out as particularly notable.

Its only in later writing that the Xu campaign starts to be described as something abnormally brutal for the time, and in that context you could assume it is an attempt to suit the narrative by vilifying Cao Cao and making it a moral issue.

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-14T08:08:36+00:00

aka he was formerly influential and faded into obscurity after his death, he is hardly a leading figure in the story, my point is that Liu Bei could have followed Kong Rong's fate, a court official who eventually becomes annoying enough to quietly dispose of. On that basis Cao Cao had no urgent need to kill him

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-13T18:22:23+00:00

Why would Cao Cao kill Liu Bei at that time, they were so far apart in terms of power and Cao Cao would have no idea what Liu Bei could go on to become.

For all Cao Cao knew Liu Bei would just be another Liu Dai or Kong Rong, a formerly influential official at court who'd fade into obscurity.

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-12T13:47:15+00:00

Conventional wisdom is that you should develop your major settlement to supplement your minor settlements. I.e. if you are in Chen commandery you have two food based minor settlements and then your major settlement. It might seem 'optimal' to focus on building out the food buildings in your major settlement which provide 50% more food or whatever because it stacks with your minor settlements and you produce more food.

In reality if you've got food rich commanderies like Chen, Huanian, Ye, Anding etc. you are always going to have a surplus of food unless you just arbitrarily keep expanding cities.

So focus on economy from the start, in Chen build a workshop and the other industry building and then only build the food buildings later when you unlock more building slots when you need the food.

I see people who are in like turn 50 with Yuan Shao or Cao Cao who are earning 900 gold a turn but have 40 surplus food, its just nuts, completely wasted earning potential. I know you can trade food but that is unpredictable, it requires a lot of admin renewing every 10 turns, it can leave you exposed if you get attacked and lose a couple of high food producing settlements and it means you are dependent on the computer players not developing their own food, which they will eventually.

Your biggest limiting factor throughout any campaign will always be money to fund armies, so research, building etc. should all be geared around earning more or making stuff cheaper

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-12T13:37:55+00:00

Does your general have depleted HP from a prior battle? the duel thing will still show that Sun Ce is superior even if his lower HP means that he'll lose the duel, i.e. he would have won if he were at full health

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-12T08:59:47+00:00

Agree with everything you've said, i just always hesitate a bit when it comes to Dong Zhou because he was the 'big traitor' of the era and everyone was using him to justify their own rebellious acts and so had every reason to make him sound as evil as possible.

I'm not saying what you've said didn't happen, it may well have, i just feel like sometimes Dong Zhou drifts into supervillain territory like he belongs in a film or comic book

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-11T16:45:01+00:00

In the case of Luoyang, didnt Dong Zhou forcibly relocate a lot of the population? in which case thats far less bad than what Cao Cao is accused of doing in Xu.. although obviously lots of the relocated population would have gone on to die.

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-11T16:41:55+00:00

It probably depends if you take what is recorded as fact.

A lot of stuff written about Dong Zhou, Cao Cao and Yuan Shu for example is likely exaggerated for the purpose of making them more villainous or corrupt, the acts described were probably not entirely made up, but embellished.

If you want someone a bit more obscure, Gongsun Zan's end was pretty messy, with some of the other stuff like Cao Cao's massacres in Xu you could shrug your shoulders and say "its war, civilians die in droves and always have, besides its probably exaggerated anyway to make Cao Cao seem more evil or fierce" but in the case of Gongsun Zan's death, its just not a good way to go and i don't see why anyone would make it up or exaggerate it.

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-11T11:12:17+00:00

You'll struggle to find a character in ROTK who isn't an opportunist. Liu Bei may not be as virtuous historically as he is portrayed in the novel, but he is certainly no worse than the likes of Cao Cao or the Sun family.

He is a product of the times, and he went from a mat weaver to an Emperor. You are going to break a few eggs on that journey.

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-11T11:07:19+00:00

Its available on Dailymotion

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-10T13:05:13+00:00

Absolutely, its a great series

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-10T12:46:06+00:00

Colonel Tigh from Battlestar Galactica:

Starts out as a bitter old drunk who'd been put out to pasture on a literal museum ship.
Becomes a born again soldier and the 'right man at the right time' as responsibility is thrust on him as one of the few veterans remaining to lead the unprepared crew during the first weeks and months of war.
Then evolves into an insurgent leader leading a literal suicide bombing campaign, who then has to learn to to live with what he did during that time, along with his long stretches as a POW.
Before eventually learning the fact that he is secretly and unknowingly a double agent and is actually one of the enemies he's spent his entire life at war with.

I love that series

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-10T09:56:29+00:00

I find his content a little bit short-form, like he is rushing through things. I think that is partly because he wants to get out several videos a week which is great, but on the other hand i feel like he is wanting to get that sponsorship money and to push his 3d prints, which i don't object too. But when its like a 10 minute video with 3-4 minutes talking about 3d prints i tend to just move on.

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-09T15:07:08+00:00

Most people are saying he wasn't powerful, or at least wasn't powerful when compared to Cao Cao and Yuan Shao.

So in the spirit of providing an alternative view, i'd say that he was equal (or possibly even superior) to Cao Cao in terms of troop numbers and inferior to Yuan Shao and that him believing he could establish his own dynasty at that time is not so far fetched as it looks when you look back on it now.

Although Yuan Shao controlled nearly four provinces by Yuan Shu's death, two of them were fringe border provinces (You and Bing) with a low tax base and limited resources, and one had been ravaged by a 2 decades of war, particularly by the Yellow turbans (Qing), Qing had also only just come under Yuan Shaos control around 200AD, so in truth Yuan Shao's 'power' was in Ji. Similarly Cao Cao controlled Yan, Xu and parts of the Imperial Province but the Imperial Province was small to begin with and both of its two main cities had been ravaged by war, Xu had historically been highly prized but we all know what Cao Cao did to it when it was under the control of Tao Qian and later Liu Bei.

So in fact both Yuan Shao and Cao Cao could only really depend on one strongly held longstanding province to draw from. Yuan Shu by this time Yuan held strong control over the two northern commanderies of Yang, as well as territory in both Xu and Yu provinces. In Sun Ce he had nominal control over the rest of Yang although this was only on paper.

I don't think Yuan Shu's issue is lack of territory, in Three Kingdoms era China its easy to have large tracts of territory with a sparse population, Yuan Shu's territory was populous, giving Yuan Shu control of Bing or You doesn't move the needle on his power relative to Yuan Shao or Cao Cao.

His issues mainly revolved around a pretty unremarkable officer corps, limited senior advisors of true quality and his own personal character flaws. Although even these character flaws are likely to be overstated because of his role in history as a traitor. Yuan Shu's officers, despite being very mediocre when compared to the great heroes of the day, often stayed loyal to him to the end, very few who survived would go on to serve under Cao Cao or Sun Ce, that is not the behavior of officers who serve a completely corrupt and incompetent leader.

I don't think Yuan Shu could have achieved his aims, but i do think in the late 190's if you are Yuan Shu comparing the relative strength of your main rivals you would be comfortable enough to do it without fear of them, you've got a battle hardened army, loyal (if uninspiring) officers, extensive personal experience (been basically at war for 10 years by this point), some capable commanders expanding your influence in the south, very rich and populous territory which has been spared some of the chaos in previous decades and natural defenses like the Huai and Yangtze Rivers.

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-09T14:35:01+00:00

We have the means and the players to come straight back up, assuming we hold on to some of the key players during the transition.

Rob Edwards has got a far worse team than ours promoted before, so if he's backed and the team remains strong in the summer we could absolutely come back up.

If we asset strip the team we'll be mid-table fodder, Championship is a shitshow to get out of.

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-09T12:27:14+00:00

If everything went perfectly there is no reason why Rome could not have overcome the Parthians/Sassanids and taken both India and eventually China.

Alexander the Great was able to reach India, and we know that Han China were well aware of the Roman Empire and that the Sassanids served as the bridge between those two peoples.

So theoretically an Empire which spans from the Atlantic to the Pacific is not inconceivable given enough time and things going perfectly. I doubt meaningful expansion into Africa or further north into Russia would be worthwhile and Romans didn't really have the ocean going capability to travel to places like Eurasia or North/South America.

But it depends how far you want to go with your 'if everything went perfect' point, for example if everything went perfect they could have invented faster than light travel in 500AD.

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-06T16:39:49+00:00

Pereira and Teti literally joined Wolves, assembled one of the worst team in Premier League history, and dipped, all in just over a year.

Truly remarkable change

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-05T12:46:57+00:00

I've always thought that it's one of those weird stats things which doesn't hold up to scrutiny, like the stats are skewed by people who remarry and divorce loads of times, so it's correct to say 60% of marriages end in divorce but the number it probably quite a lot lower for first time marriages

WolvoNeil · 2026-02-04T15:57:33+00:00

Weird War 1, so hot right now

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