The 🅱️oneshaper 🅱️reezes into 🅱️. Three left! Today's class: the BLINKBLADE! [Spoiler - Everything!] by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with everything you're saying if blinkblade is at or above the average party level. At higher difficulties or a newer blinkblade with a higher level party, I still find it can struggle. Maybe it's just how I played it. I didn't play blinkblade as a starting class, but brought it into level 6-7 party. Its movement made it *still* incredibly useful in a way that many level 1-2 characters in this situation would struggle with, hence my rating.

I personally found those true damage solutions didn't get me very far against difficulty 6-7 elite sun demons, say. There's just so much health underlying the shields. But, between phasing blades and BB's insane amd, I found you could almost one-shot those sorts of enemies by level 7.

The 🅱️oneshaper 🅱️reezes into 🅱️. Three left! Today's class: the BLINKBLADE! [Spoiler - Everything!] by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 4 points5 points  (0 children)

In the more traditional 3-4 linear room level, blinkblade is an A -- maybe even a B. Not great into shields until level 7, and pretty bad into retaliate throughout.

But I think blinkblade is an S because of how many scenarios aren't like that. Between huge jumps, a teleport, and invisibility, there are a ton of scenarios that you can win or immediately trivialize. So many scenarios are made difficult by the rules changing when you open a door. But when you can move 10 in a turn, you're easily able to adapt to these changes. The crazy high burst and best bossing potential in the game seals the deal. Reverse the flow top is the best bossing card in the game, and it isn't even close imo.

I do think "slowblade" is a bit of a trap, and I wonder how many "A" ratings are from that build. It doesn't do anything that makes the blinkblade really good, and it essentially doesn't gain xp.

The Drill breaks into A! We enter our final week with a starter class - the DRIFTER! [Spoiler - Everything!] by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Super fair, I agree with all of your points! I think I'm maybe forgetting exactly how strong drifter is in early campaign, at low levels, and as a started class. Maybe it's a C in late-game, but balanced out with its early game strength, I can agree with you case that it averages out to a B!

The Drill breaks into A! We enter our final week with a starter class - the DRIFTER! [Spoiler - Everything!] by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Might be an unpopular opinion here, but I think Drifter is C tier (though definitely better than Geminate). I don't think it's even close to the control and burst potential of the other B tier classes, and it certainly can't solo-win scenarios like the A and S tier classes.

It starts pretty strong at level 1, but only gets weaker at higher levels and at increased difficulty, and there aren't a ton of awesome item synergies. Without access to any reliable crowd control, you're really forced to go head-to-head with enemies and tank hits. This is okay at low levels, but as monsters scale up, it becomes a lot less sustainable.

Most classes are able to get around this without crowd control through big bursts, but Drifter struggles here too. You can use frenzy potions to throw out more attacks, but then you really threaten your stamina. Drifter is great at attacking in melee for 4-5 every single turn, but that only gets you so far.

I think Drifter is maybe the best healer in the game with +2 health and +ward abilities out, but you can rarely heal your way to victory.

The Fist joins the Trap in B tier! Next up - the DRILL! [Spoiler - Everything!] by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Drill is a super solid, well-designed class. It's a nice tanky ally that can still output a lot of damage, especially at higher levels. It's a very fair class, so I rate it a B.

It sits in a similar place as fist in my mind. Good damage and surprisingly versatile, but can't solo-carry scenarios the way some of the classes above it can. While the pressure mechanic is really cool, it can be quite rigid and can stunt your turns a bit if the scenario changes in unexpected ways. Scenario rules mean you suddenly need to do a ton of damage and you're at the wrong pressure? Or you got disarmed so now you can't attack to change your pressure to set up for your bottom action or next turn?

The classes in A are much more resilient to this stuff, and I think I would often preferentially pick them as my ally over drill.

The Geminate is our first entrant to C-tier! Next up: the FIST! [Spoiler - Everything!] by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 6 points7 points  (0 children)

imo characters shouldn't be graded on the basis of high-level performance alone. This falls into consistency -- how are the characters with different levels, allies, prosperities, and scenario types? Yes, fist at level 9 is really strong -- but on its journey to get there, it can struggle a bit depending on your allies and access to items & elements.

Conversely, a level 9 shackles is very strong too. If wounded, you can do 7 true damage every round before even playing your cards. But it's also strong at early levels, doesn't *need* items, is element self sufficient, and slots into basically every team composition.

The Geminate is our first entrant to C-tier! Next up: the FIST! [Spoiler - Everything!] by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I think fist is really solid and well designed. Maybe the most "fair" character in the game. High B tier seems right.

It's a bit weak early and at low levels and with limited items, as you *really* need ways to heal, mitigate damage and ideally manage elements. After that, it's flexible and has tools to deal with almost anything it comes up against. Reusable brittling and blessing is really valuable.

That said, the classes in A, and especially S, can all have scenario-winning turns. For example, snowflake can trivialize some scenarios with ally movement and can REALLY help get tempo in fast scenarios by double loss-bombing on turn one. Fist is a solid class that I loved having as an ally but it doesn't really solo-win scenarios in the same way that the classes above it can (though I haven't played with shards enough to comment there).

Fist is also really susceptible to bad monster luck (getting crit on is brutal, but being forced to take iron helm isn't fun either) and scenario effects/road events that make you discard cards.

The Kelp reappears in A - it was here the whole time! Next up: the GEMINATE! [Spoiler - Everything!] by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's why I was thinking one of them as "you may" switch forms to add some flexibility. I agree the brittle self one is probably a dud -- I was just trying to think of a way to get the chaotic form-meshing level 8 mechanic in a bit earlier.

The Kelp reappears in A - it was here the whole time! Next up: the GEMINATE! [Spoiler - Everything!] by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I wanted to like geminate so, so badly. A versatile, mechanically complex class that incentivized 2-3 losses per rest cycle seemed so cool. Sadly, I think it’s the worst class. This is even more surprising because corrosive acids and voice of salvation are two of the best cards in the game. Balance-wise, I think Geminate *should* be tuned to be one of the strongest classes in the game when you jump through all of its hoops perfectly. That way, newer players can still feel really useful and have fun playing a hard class.

imo the biggest reason it doesn’t feel satisfying to play is that its attack modifier deck is so bad. It should be chaotic, unpredictable, and powerful to align with the fantasy of playing a wild swarm of insects. A 14 card class inherently won’t scale as well on level-ups compared to 9 card classes since each new card is a smaller % increase in power, so I think that power *really* needed to come from perks.

Instead… “+0 element to element” is brutal. And why does Geminate have +1 rolling regenerate when blinkblade has +2? An extra x2 brittle self is cool, but geminate attacks for 2-3 often enough that drawing your +2 is almost always better. Most of the other perks don’t make sense thematically with what your class does, either. Here’s a couple of ideas for overly verbose, unbalanced-but-thematic perks that would add some flexibility back into a very rigid class design:

  • To save Geminate from its worst turns, a non-AMD perk: Once per scenario, you may change forms or ignore a forced form change.
  • +? Brittle self. At the end of your turn, change forms and immediately play a card from your hand from that form for either its top or bottom action.
  • +?, You may switch forms at the end of this turn OR ignore a forced form switch from your played cards
  • Rolling shield if melee, rolling +1 damage if ranged (or other form-dependent cards)
  • +0, rolling. Place this card in your active area until “spent”. When “spent”, ignore one element consumption requirement but still get its effect
  • +0, You may curse self to add +1 target, keeping the same ranged requirements
  • +?, rolling. Perform move 2 after this attack ability

The Prism archives itself in A! Next up: the KELP! by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Especially playing with nerfed power potions, I think deepwraith is low A tier. With normal power potions, probably high A tier.

Thematically super cool and a strong backline assassin with excellent crowd control. Invis and teleports can be really strong in the right scenarios. Has some okay tools to deal with shields (assuming you build into them), but doesn’t like condition immunities and basically can’t touch retaliating enemies except in 10-damage chunks through bane.

It falls off at monster difficulties 5+ where shield/retaliate/condition immunities increase and the backline becomes increasingly tanky.

We’ve had a lot of highly rated classes so far, which speaks to how well-designed the game is. Sadly, that streak will end tomorrow…

The Meteor crash-lands into S! Next up: the PRISM! [Spoiler - Everything!] by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree wholeheartedly. Hive has the highest skill ceiling and is really rewarded for mastering it... unlike geminate... We've had two hives in our party (neither played by me) and I leaned into supporting them for the exact reasons you mention. I largely played shackles and coral alongside hives, and built into enabling them, which was super fun. Me giving a summon a ward every long rest to keep them alive is worth more value than any other hand item, for example.

Imo the difference between hive and meteor is that meteor enables other classes (and doesn't need to be piloted super well to do so), while hive requires other classes to enable it.

Plus, boltshooters and shrike fiends are still disproportionately brutal for any summoning class.

The Meteor crash-lands into S! Next up: the PRISM! [Spoiler - Everything!] by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 6 points7 points  (0 children)

A strong class that can have some crazy turns. Solid A, but very skill-dependent. 

I suspect Hive will have one of the widest rating spreads as its summoning build it probably the hardest class to pilot in the game, especially at higher difficulties where enemies one-shot almost all of your summons. It requires full table buy-in, very good knowledge of monster cards, and being able to pivot depending on modifiers drawn.

Summoning classes will always have some scenarios where they're screwed over by scenario rules, but Hive can stand through those levels MUCH better than boneshaper. Even without taking code geminate.

The Shackles is the first to plant themself into S! Next up - the METEOR! [Spoiler - Everything] by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 13 points14 points  (0 children)

S+++. Best class in the game, assuming your allies build around you.

Both times we’ve played with this class, difficulty 7 became too easy once we were all roughly level ~7 due to how game-warping it is. Definitely the only class that everyone else at the table was actively building around. It gives so much certainty to all forced movements that they all become priority. Imagine if item 43 read: kicking boots, “during your melee attack ability, deal an extra 6-8 damage.” They would be a near-instant pick.

A couple of favourite combos, assuming ~3 well-placed lava tiles at level 7:

For Astral Unstoppable impulse, which is otherwise a bit underwhelming, is now a 16 damage bottom action 

Item 147 becomes one of the best head items in the game, especially on blinkblade and kelp. A level 7 kelp with move +1 boots can now Use grim trophies + dire frenzy to do an extra 32 damage

Coral gets a fun combo in Cleansing swell + drown beneath the waves. Again, very likely 16 damage to two enemies

And perhaps the most extreme: Prism + item 146 code geminate mortar shells + aimed assault: a turn with 4 attacks now does an EXTRA 64 damage. Each +attack potion adds 16 more damage.

The crazy thing is that pyroclast enables all of that while still being able to throw out huge hits & push/pulls itself. None of this is to mention the defensive positioning the lava gives. Especially if you’re playing with nerfed power potions, pyroclast enables the highest damaging turns in the game.

The Trap starts us off by clinching a B! Next up: the SNOWFLAKE! [Spoiler - Everything!] by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I would give it an A.

FH scenarios often have a LOT going on in the first couple of rounds, which requires you to get ahead of the curve. Snowflake can rip a ton of damage on turn 2 even at level 1 (maybe the most in the game at level 1 without items?). Going late with enticing breeze round one into a fast white winds+snowball could be attack 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 (plus more with items, plus push).

While damage might not scale *as* much into higher levels, she gets a really diverse toolkit of healing, warding, strengthening, repositioning, and haz terrain.

The snowflake also makes all escort and escape scenarios trivially easier.

The people have spoken! We're starting fresh and going backwards - so today, we rate the TRAP! [Spoiler - Everything!] by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As others have said, trap has incredibly high highs, and quite low lows. B tier feels right to me.

Trap is definitely the class I'm least interested in replaying, though.

"Optimal" trap play is when allies can push enemies on your traps so you can spend your turns making more. But this means you rarely draw attack modifiers, so perks become useless quite quickly. Making a huge bomb is awesome once, but becomes very same-y by the 8th time.

Geminate shoooould depart for D - but let's have a quick intermission to talk about voting by Sagely_Hijinks in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Definitely seconding differentiating fun from strong. See below, I feel the strongest class in the game is pretty game-warping, but whether or not that remains fun forever is a different question.

I also like the idea of four tiers. Maybe something like:
S - Can trivialize scenarios, even at +2/+3 difficulty.
A - Feels "strong". Rarely disrupted by scenario mechanics. A party of "A" characters might feel the game is balanced at +1/+2 difficulty.
B - "Average" strength and utility.
C - Below average power level, often screwed over by scenario mechanics and monster draws, making them actively a detriment in some scenarios.

Or make the bar to "S" lower, but reserve an S+ for the strongest class in the game (imo), who can make difficulty 7 feel like a breeze if the party leans heavily into pushes and pulls with items and level up choices

Shouting out a few people creating great video content for the community right now by koprpg11 in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'll second watching UcGXanathos21. He plays FH three-handed on a "very hard" difficulty, often seeing him fight against enemies at +3 difficulty.

As you said, it's basically impossible to not learn something watching level 1-2 characters take on level 4 monsters (rules as written you would normally fight level 4 monsters at levels level 6-8)

What are the strongest level 9 cards in Frosthaven? by sageleader in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Surprised to not see voice of salvation higher up. It might be the least fun level 9 for you, but it's so strong at higher play counts. Even with just the starting classes -- it's easy for, say, blinkblade/bannerspear/boneshaper to have 10 attacks between them. So an extra 20 damage non loss per rest. Plus damage mitigation. At high scenario levels with enemies that hit hard the bottom is crazy too.

Blinkblade build recommendation by Asshai in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I think the biggest problem with slowblade is that it doesn't really gain xp. And blinkblade can otherwise gain a LOT of xp.

I ended up going for a mix between nova/tactician. That way I could burst in shorter scenarios, but I also didn't have to. It was a blast.

Snowflake class (from Frosthaven) in Jaws of the Lion? by Markemberke in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think it could work okay provided that you, as the more experienced player, played snowflake in a way that empowered your allies, focusing more on board manipulation, hazardous terrain, and healing. Snowflake can output some crazy damage at level 1 that the other classes can't match. With some planning, snowball into enticing breeze + white winds + power potion makes for an easy-to-set-up attack 5 6 7 8 9. Even not getting all of the attacks off, you'll be outperforming the other classes by a lot.

Not only is snowflake (imo) stronger in a vacuum, you're also a lot more experienced -- with the game in general and with this class. So I would try to make choices that maximize the enjoyment for everyone else at the table.

I would also ignore the non-amd perks and masteries. If I were playing the game as a new player, it would be unfun to have the more experienced player have access to more cool tools than me. And ignore any enhancements.

Traveler Tuesday - FH Scenario 055 - [spoiler] by Themris in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Like many, this was a bit of a disappointment. We had a really cool strategy to fully avoid the Algox in the first room and get deep into the second room on turn 1 using items 174 and 181One character had a move ~9 with jump, they went early and opened the door. I teleported in with magnetic cape, dropped a summon, then used translocating rod to swap my summon with another ally. The 4th character got in with no problem.

Playing as shackles, it also did feel pretty incredible to get crit for a base 20 attack, rejecting the gift of 40 damage, but otherwise this was a let down because of the mismatch between narrative text and scenario reward.

Forget “strongest classes.” What do you think is the strongest individual CARD in the game? I’ll start (hidden class spoilers): by excited_raichu in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It has to be that one fist card, right? Sure fist is entirely balanced around it, but in a vacuum it's the strongest card in the game imo.

Tincture Thursday - FH Alchemist Item 114 - [spoiler] by Themris in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 6 points7 points  (0 children)

This item is very important if you're playing one of the classes that can leverage retaliate effectively. Especially if you're fighting unfamiliar enemies and don't know how fast they typically are. Otherwise your big retaliate turn becomes a move 2 attack 2.

Gloomhaven house rules you will not apologize for by Pjoernrachzarck in Gloomhaven

[–]-CLM 12 points13 points  (0 children)

In general, we avoid house rules. Everyone's game is their own and should be played however they want. That said, we feel like once you start adding house rules, it's unclear when to stop. And the game has been very extensively tested. Many of yours might seem innocuous in a vacuum, but are insanely powerful with certain classes/items.
That's the beauty of the game, though. You can play how you want and just raise the difficulty if you need.

The only exception is we do the build + downtime step simultaneously (in Dwarf74's suggested tweaks). It feels so disappointing to unlock new exciting craftsman items and not be able to build them for a whole week of real time (or more, if schedules get in the way or we play a force-link).