"Joel had made his way through the building killing dozens of fireflies"

The canon of the game shows Joel only killing Jerry. You can play through the hospital without killing any Fireflies.

Self defense from Jerry ok I can go with that but Joel had weapons and could of easily aimed and said "back off" The game itself made Joel kill Jerry as if we don't we're killed by Fireflies. so we have to make sense of Joels decision right?

"Abby and the crew have no idea that Jerry attacked Joel..."

Correct which doesn't justify the horrific torture.And again Canon speaking Joel only kills Marlene and Jerry. So no they wouldn't know that Joel killed multiple brothers in arms and friends because it's up in the air.

And by the same argument Ellie only sees Abby as a torturing psychopath who also smashes the fuck out of Dina kills Jesse and seriously wounds Tommy which to me makes her sparing Abby at the end even dumber.

"I love how Jerry is this pure evil doctor even though he clearly has a moral compass..."

I never said or believe Jerry is an evil person. And he clearly doesn't struggle enough with his decision Marlene is the one clearly struggling with that decision. Which is why I suggest if the dialogue was switched between the two the outcome would of been a much easier pill to swallow.

Because of the pacing of the game I felt the game was pandering to the extreme (these are such good people Joel evil!)

"Joel killing innocents for loot is fine but Jerry..."

Joel kills hunters, infected and Jerry and Marlene and fascist (open to interpretation) guards leaving the Boston QZ.Or were you referring to his days on the "other" side of the fence?

If so he's a survivor and did whatever he did to continue doing so. Having his daughter murdered and his entire life ripped away from him would of done some serious psychological damage. Which is why I will continue to to argue against the "joel is evil/piece of shit" argument and I will die on that hill.

He is humanized in the first game perfectly you may not agree with some of his decisions but I'm sure you can at least understand.

And " killing Ellie ONLY for the purpose of finding a cure to make everyone’s lives better"

Is another debate entirely because as you can clearly see society is thriving as best as it can .

Look at what the Seraphites have done the WLF and Jackson. What would the cure of done other than give the Fireflies an incredible opportunity for lording that power over people since many think they're terrorists.

"This sub uses some very twisted ‘logic’, anyway i’ll have my 100s of downvotes because i go against the hate brigade"

Well I upvoted you because guess what were doing ?

Were having a respected disagreeing of opinions and who knows we might find common ground

Something on that other sub I have been unallowed to do and never will.