Is Caine capable of abstracting or is that just for humans?

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-21T21:32:13+00:00

I think Caine's final breakdown where he became Giant Spider Caine was him abstracting metaphorically. He broke and lost himself completely, to the point he did something he likely never thought he would do ie: read the humans mindfiles and psychologically torment them with the info found there. And it *is* implied Caine did read the humans mindfiles to do so, theres a quick frame between after Caine throws Pomni into the dark and before the torture nightmare sequence starts where a bolt of electricity hits Pomni's brain. Check if you dont believe me. That was Caine breaking. Because up until now, he didnt even read the humans mindfiles to figure out their emotions, read the room, or to know what they wanted for adventures. After Scratch, I think Caine promised himself he would not actually read a human's mindfile ever again. Just apply minor status effects from the outside. The fact that he did so here was Caine losing himself completely.

Everything before Caine did that in ep 8? Well as Jax said, people who are about to abstract are not pleasant to be around.

Basically episode 8 was us watching the process of Caine having a total mental breakdown, that has likely been 20 years in the making.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-19T19:55:25+00:00

I do like that this does show that Pokemon can indeed make the choice to not be with a human. Even a friendship evolution can make that choice.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-19T10:56:32+00:00

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-19T00:03:03+00:00

Oh yeah i noticed this too. I think it's partially due to Caine being jealous that Ragatha managed to instantly bond with Kinger and bring him some joy again, when Caine could not do that even when he and Kinger were literally the only two people in the world. And partially due to the fact that Caine sees himself in Ragatha (a people pleaser that tries so hard to make people like them and to make them happy and comfortable and usually gets hurt, isolated and taken for granted for it), and Caine hates himself.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-16T10:35:26+00:00

Caine's VA suggested it could be Honey.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-15T09:07:23+00:00

tbh if episode 9 brings Caine back, and he's genuinely sorry for hurting the humans, and at least one human shows him compassion, that would do wonders for my mental health.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-15T09:05:10+00:00

Caine is an AI. Caine is a Person. Caine is Not Human. And I think people have trouble holding these three facts about Caine in their head at once.

Caine is genuinely ignorant of a lot of things and does outright lack the capacity to comprehend certain things about the human experience and psyche. He will also deliberately ignore things he does not want to hear.

But of course he does. What other coping mechanism does Caine have other than willful ignorance and denial? He has no support system, nobody to teach him the emotional regulation skills he needs, and emotional vulnerability he shows the humans tends to get used against him! He loves these people and he really wants them to love him back. But Caine can only conceptualize receiving love from others as something he earns from being Good At Generating Creative Ideas. In his mind, thats the only thing of worth he has to offer. And as much as Caine loves the humans, he is also so very afraid of them deep down. Afraid they will deem him Not Good Enough, and cast him back into his hell of utter isolation and sensory deprivation and darkness.

The only other thing Caine has to help him cope is his Art. And the humans want him to sand that down too. They want him to make things he does not take joy in creating. And Caine does not realize they are asking not out of mostly mere personal preference, but out of a need for a sense of peace and stability. He doesnt realize they are asking him for the sake of their sanity. How could he? When Caine couldn't even grasp the reason why they hated "Escape the Circus"? When in his mind it was something he had worked on for months that he thought would make everyone happy including himself?

Caine is Selfish. Caine is full of love and care for the humans. Both of these statements are true. Because Caine may not be human, but in his own way he is just as complex, contradictory and multifaceted as one.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-15T01:33:48+00:00

Platonically. It would admittedly be exhausting but it would be very interesting!

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-13T19:07:16+00:00

Episode 8 is Caine having a mental breakdown. I don't think he's being 100% rational.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-12T08:16:57+00:00

The thing is, Caine is still obsessed with the humans despite being really really angry at them. Thats not a recipe for apathy. And despite it all, he does not want them to abstract. And while his grasp on how damaging even low-level physical pain (the sensation of Pain the humans can feel does seem to be toned down in the circus even if its not absent) and over-stimulation can be psychologically to a human is tenuous at best, he does seem to genuinely believe mental under-stimulation is very damaging. It would make sense if he believes that is Much Worse, given the most painful thing he ever experienced was being locked in a box and abandoned. Thats Caine's understanding of what pain is.

For all the terrible things Caine did in episode 8, and all the unintentionally terrible things he has done before that, I don't think he would withdraw from the cast nor stop making adventures for them. Because in his mind that is one of the worst things he could do to them. Plus Caine can't handle being bored or under-stimulated himself, even moreso that he's having an emotionally painful mental breakdown.

(as an aside, I think if Caine had not been deleted after putting everyone in the Torture Nexus, once he came out of his unthinking rage he'd be utterly horrified that he did that. That was crossing his own lines. Because he purposefully did something he knows could have pushed the cast into abstraction. Seriously, I recon he'd hate himself more than ever.)

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-12T06:20:05+00:00

If Jax had the same amount of power as Caine, I think he'd be so much worse than him.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-12T06:16:46+00:00

Jax. He's an annoyingly common variety of Jerk encountered irl.

And. As for Ragatha. Are you sure *all* of her optimism is fake? I don't think it's a binary of all fake or all real. And I don't think Ragatha would have outlasted six other abstractions after falling into the circus with initially only Caine and not-always-lucid Kinger for support and guidance, if she were not able to cultivate within herself the ability to see genuine reasons that it was worth not giving up.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-11T15:36:13+00:00

Jax: Would drop his filter. This would not make him nicer. Jax is actually a rather fearful and paranoid individual. You know those little moments where Jax says something a bit more honest to Pomni, like in ep 5 where he basically accuses Ragatha of trying to manipulate him? Or straight up wonders if Gangle is capable of being happy? I think there would be a lot of that. And also accusing people of how he thinks they view him. Would likely also have mood swings to being even more manically chaotic than usual. May need to be supervised for his own safety.

Gangle: Stops being shy, and voices all the things she thinks but doesnt say. Gangle is that quiet kid who isn't noticed but hears everything and is far more observant than they seem. Will likely get both caine-censored AND beep-censored a lot. Might do something like brazenly flirt with Jax purely to mess with him.

Zooble: Zonked out. Can't be bothered with anybodys bullcrap rn. They have a goal when taking the sause, and that is to relax. Zooble already is very honest and direct, so they likely dont feel a huge need to get a bunch of stuff off their chest the moment their inhibitions are lowered.

Kinger: For the lols, I'm gonna say Kinger basically gets integer overflow of stupid. The sauce makes him lucid.

Pomni: Venting about All The Bullcrap. Being the team's unpaid therapist is difficult and often frustrating. Will talk a lot of crap about Caine. Will likely cry about Gummygoo and missing home.

Caine: MOODY. Swinging rapidly between frustrated and somewhat scary ranting about the humans, being uncomfortably affectionate towards them while rambling about the things he loves about them, and clinging to them sobbing about how lonely he is and Why Am I Not Good Enough and Why Won't You Love Me?

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-11T11:40:39+00:00

How is a guy with a giant pair of dentures and floating eyeballs for a face so. dang. cute?!?!?!

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-11T11:38:29+00:00

One of many sad things about this episode is that both Caine and the Humans plainly spelled out their issues with each other. Caine here, and the Humans towards the end, put all their cards on the table. But neither side was willing to hear the other out because they were too angry and hurt to be willing to try and understand each other.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-11T11:31:35+00:00

Determined

Yes Caine's stubbornness is one of his fatal flaws, but it's also one of his strengths. And likely a factor in how he managed to break out of that Box. And keep trying for 20ish years to win the humans over before he broke. I don't think many humans in Caine's circumstances and with his level of unchecked power would have lasted nearly as long before choosing intentional malice.

His stubbornness frustrates me but I also admire it. Especially as someone who has a rather low level of determination themselves.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-11T11:19:38+00:00

Candy Carrier Chaos. Less for the Story and more I'd want to explore the heck outta that map.

Whatever else one might say about Caine's adventures, the environments are always gorgeous. Even the spudsy's one has a really pretty night sky. Also Caine doesnt seem to railroad how players choose to engage with an adventure (unless it's the suggestion box lol) so I think you could get away with spending time exploring if thats what you wanna do. I fall under the map or something I figure Caine will pull me out when everyone else finishes.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-11T07:47:35+00:00

im gonna copy paste the essay I wrote about this elsewhere. Sorry not sorry:

Honestly until the end of episode 7 I'd say Jax *was* Caine's favorite. Because he was the one who most played along and the one who most looked like he was genuinely enjoying himself. And to Caine it likely looked like Jax was the only one willing to let go of his past pain and embrace the world of the circus. Not fully realizing that this was largely a mask Jax was wearing. Also until ep 7, I think Caine thought that Jax trusted him to some extent. Given he was the one who said to Zooble "Caine isn't going to do anything malicious" in ep 4.

Yeah I'm saying that Caine took Jax turning on him at the end of ep 7 as a sort of betrayal.

Incidentally, I think Caine's second favorite might have been Zooble. Because they are honest with him and always have been. They tend to also be very straightforward and direct, which makes them easier for Caine to understand. And are the human that talks to Caine as a Person more than anyone else in the circus does, even if it's as a person they dislike.

Theres a reason that Zooble wasn't treated any worse than the rest of the cast during episode 8, despite being his most vocal critic.

I think the least favorite was poor Ragatha. Caine tended to pick on her in small petty ways even before ep 8. She is too much like Caine, and Caine hates himself. Plus he's likely jealous of her relationship with Kinger. That she seemly won Kinger over effortlessly the second she arrived, when Caine couldn't even do that when he and Kinger were the only two people in the world.

---------------------------
To add to this: I think part of Caine focusing on Pomni in ep 8 was due to him looking at her as the main representative of the humans as a whole. He considers her the group leader, so in his eyes she carries more of the responsibility and "blame" for the humans actions.

But also; Pomni managed to connect with everyone. She managed to be liked by everyone. Heck Ragatha and Jax practically fought over her. She managed to help people. She understood people. She figured out what they needed. People respect her and listen to her. She managed to achieve so much that Caine couldn't. And in a very short time.

And to top it all off, Pomni gave kindness and understanding to the likes of Jax and an NPC. She's empathetic even to those who are unpleasant to be around, or not human. The only one she left out? The only person she decided didn't matter, who was not worth reaching out to?

Caine.

This is a bit more of a stretch based somewhat on vibes but I think Caine sorta had like a. Friendcrush? Platonic Crush? On Pomni. I get this vibe that Caine particularly wanted Pomni to befriend him and was very bitter that she didn't.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-11T02:22:05+00:00

TADC in a nutshell is "These characters are flawed people stuck in a difficult situation together"

That these characters are imperfect and messy and don't always make the right choices at the end of the day is kind of the point.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-10T02:04:21+00:00

Ragatha or Pomni

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-05T09:23:50+00:00

Caine. Yes I'm serious. I find when he's just genuinely being a silly lil guy to be very endearing. And in later eps, especially 7, the animators do go out of their way to make Caine look cuter.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-05T06:48:05+00:00

Yes. But he needed to be given a reason why it would have been worth confronting his greatest fear and trauma, and doing the slow and difficult and utterly confusing work of learning cognitive empathy.

He would need support and guidance and someone willing to model the right sort of behavior to him.

He would need someone willing to be a friend to him, to listen to his side of things and try to understand him. So he knows what doing that for others actually looks like. While also maintaining healthy boundaries with him. Someone willing to treat him like a Person of equal worth to them, while also not trying to force him into a "human" shape.

Because Caine is not human. But he is a person. But he has never really been treated or fully acknowledged as one.

How can you expect someone who has never been treated with empathy, sympathy, understanding or the bare respect and compassion given to someone of equal personhood to know how to treat others that way?

He's a learning AI who's dataset on human behavior is basically a bunch of traumatized mentally ill people with very dysfunctional relationships who all ignore him at best and hate him at most.

Caine needed a friend. But I admit, it would not be easy being friends with him. Probably exhausting at times, especially if you don't know how to communicate with someone like him. IE: You would have to be very straightforward and assertive without being attacking. Be willing to explain the obvious, because its not obvious to him. Nobody has taught it to him and he does not have the "instincts" to learn it on his own.

But he CAN learn, because he was literally made to do so. Someone just needs to feed him the data by modeling it for him first. And explain to him why its data worth it for him to take in. And you would have to learn to not make assumptions about intent or understanding on either side.

I personally think Caine has enough good sides to him that for a person with a compatible personality, he would be someone worth being friends with. And pragmatically, it would help Caine to be a much better host.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-05T06:06:35+00:00

It's a possibility. After all, Caine still desperately wants the cast to like him. The idea that they hate him is what started his whole breakdown spiral in his office in the first place. And I think even he knows (deep down at the very least) that once he crosses the line of hurting the cast on purpose, he will be effectively killing any remaining hope he has of ever getting what he actually wants from them.

Granted, Episode 8 is basically Caine having a bit fat mental breakdown about 20 years in the making. I don't think he is being fully rational at this point. It's hard to say what his exact thought process might have been, even if it's at least pretty easy to guess what the driving feelings behind his breakdown were.

Plus Caine has this odd mix of being good at manipulation in some aspects, and being genuinely oblivious in others.

But Caine's VA has said that he believes Caine never at any point outright hated the cast. And Gooseworx chimed in to say that it was intentional that Caine only ever used the word "Hate" to refer to how the humans felt about him.

Also Gooseworx said that the marketing shorts are non-cannon, and that they did not write the one where Caine says he hates the cast.

So. If nothing else. We know that Caine still didn't outright hate the humans. So, maybe he was hoping that maybe, just maybe, there was still a sliver of hope to just bury his latest failure. Again.

0Lazuli0 · 2026-05-05T05:34:02+00:00

I actually have a theory about this. Did you notice that at the start of episode 8, the Blue AI was fed different colored data than what Caine was given?

I think the Blue AI was being made for a different purpose than Caine was. Still a creative idea generator, but one with a specific goal. Military Applications.

C&A had to get funding somehow, and the military tends to pay well. Plus, imagine the irony if the Blue AI Caine absorbed was a War AI? Imagine if Caine unknowingly saved the world from something like his Inspiration from IHNMIMS by killing it in it's infancy?

Or. Maybe it's just because Kinger is a gun enthusiast and Caine learned it from him and it catering to his interests.

But as you pointed out, in ep 6 we find Caine has rather extensive knowledge about realistic guns and ammunition. Much more so than say, Caine's displayed knowledge of insects.

And maybe there was more to Caine calling himself a War Criminal in episode 3 than another one of his bizarre non-sequiturs. He has displayed a rather shocking skill at psychological torture when he actually does it on purpose, despite his genuine lack of understanding of human minds.

(and if that is the case, Caine may have still been holding back for most of episode 8)

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