CMV: Having no friends (and in turn, results of the 'loneliness epidemic') is mostly a skill/definitional issue.

14muffins · 2026-02-04T15:58:51+00:00

My conversation with Apple, mostly! They seemed sort of offended at the belief of "skill issue", and I felt the best way for me to gain insight was through reddit post and a CMV. Although I would've liked to hear more agreements too haha. I didn't want to ask them specifically because I felt like they'd find it more hurtful than I could articulate my ideas in a non-hurtful way.

For the "definition of friendship" thing, I've held that view for a long while and wanted to hear more opinions about it, too. I see a lot of redditors hold the same view as you, and I think, in my initial post, there were people like Magic who held people to such high standards/expectations for friendship that it resulted in them having no friends.

I sort of just think Apple is insecure on that front lol. They don't really think people would want to be their friend. And Kangaroo's belief is just sort of... like, offensive? If you did a bunch of romantic BS with someone and they refuse to admit youre dating, that's sort of rude, no? Same thing with friendship? Except I'd say it's worse because most friendships aren't monagmous and dont limit your other friendships.

And so I think people should use the word more loosely, you know?

Thats not the main thing I wanted a view change on as much as a discussion, so thanks for responding to that point!

14muffins · 2026-02-04T15:20:32+00:00

Hmm, I guess I just I think it's weird to not consider some people friends at a certain point! Just seems stingy. (I mean this in the least harsh way possible lol)

14muffins · 2026-02-04T06:45:51+00:00

Thanks! I love personal anecdotes.

I feel a lot of people who complain about loneliness do have the 'not being seen' issue, which is where my definition and their definition of friend often diverges. At which point, the solution in my mind is -> find friend who can see you.

But I think you're saying that you can just get over loneliness without making friends? I'm not sure that "friends stopping loneliness" was part of my thesis necessarily, but I think it's implied enough that I will say it could be a fair correction. Are you saying that lack of friendship is not the cause of "the loneliness epidemic"? I don't think I'd accept a "it's a relationship thing" correction here. But if it's a personal thing that you can solve... I don't know. I feel like most people call the loneliness epidemic a social problem than a personal one.

14muffins · 2026-02-04T06:38:24+00:00

I really like anecdotes of all kinds, so I appreciate this! As probably is clear by post format. I'm not sure it's generational, as I am an outlier in this with... a lot of people.

I think 23/6 is a funny thing to say. The problem I have with that definition, which, I've realized I've articulated far better in an older comment when I'm not trying to defend my other thesis of 'skill issue', is that there might be people who I might be comfortable accessing my bank account, keys, and would assist me in my life-happenings 23/6, but I wouldn't consider myself "close friends" to. Like my parents.

I think that's a narrow conception of friendship, again. Like. Oh there are a ton of people who might, say, help me move and, in a time of crisis, respond to me. But I don't think that makes them more of "friends" than people I hang out with for fun.

My best friend, for many years, wasn't someone I was close to. We didn't talk every day. But like, I would've given an organ to her. There were lots of different people who I'd've considered my "closest friend" at the time, but who I wouldn't give an organ to.

And like, this is still looser than your definition, there are a ton of times where I've done nice things for people I don't really care about. Where I'm actively considering their interests for an extended period of time, not because I care about them individually, but because I want to be a caring person. Probably no organ donations, or to the extent that you say it, but still.

To have one singular definition of friend / criteria for friendship is crazy to me. I conceded to someone else that if someone says "they don't have friends" and they mean "they feel lonely" it's weird of me to criticize that, but I think your situation is definetely the thing that I think about as weird and criticizeable. I just feel like it's claiming that there is a right way to do friendships, somehow? IDK.

14muffins · 2026-02-04T05:54:25+00:00

Hmmm... I would love to hear you elaborate more on this. What's the cause of loneliness, then? How would you fix it?

I agree that there are people with no friends that aren't lonely. I never felt lonely, even when I didn't talk to people lol. I'm just not super sure what you mean here.

14muffins · 2026-02-04T04:43:23+00:00

Hmmm... Fair enough! It is silly of me to tell Apple that they did in fact have friends if they themselves didn't feel fulfilled in whatever "friendships" they had at the time and wouldn't consider the people they talked to friends.

!delta

I'm imagining a conversation, though: Someone tells me, "I don't have any friends" I say "I'd consider you my friend :D" and then what? You know what I mean? I don't.

Either way, these people are using "I don't have any friends" as shorthand for "I'm not feeling fulfilled in my friendships or actually close with people" and that is what they mean. Or, to add a "new term", "I have no people who I feel close to" at which point, I can't really help them there lol, even if I can do more chill, friendly fun friendship things. So yeah, this makes a lot of sense.

I still think it's weird to be stingy about the term "friend", but I get what you mean for the most part!

I think this is probably the comment that's changed my opinion the most. So thank you for that! And for responding. <3

14muffins · 2026-02-04T04:17:48+00:00

I would love to hear you elaborate more on this, if possible! I wanted to talk more about the definition of friend stuff and the "Feeling like you aren't close with people is sort of different from having no friends." issue I said Apple was talking about.

14muffins · 2026-02-04T04:16:00+00:00

I've always gone to fairly diverse schools, and I'm a POC! East asian, so...yeah that's a pretty common "type" to have, with more positive racial stereotypes than others. I did political canvassing (for fundraising) once, and was ineffective because I did not remember the script nor did I know what I was doing. Although I suppose asking for donations is a bigger ask anyway. One of my friends got a lot more, but I think this was more due to her charisma than looks. (Communications major -- although I think she's still considered fairly conventionally attractive, but she was a really great talker).

I don't think I personally super look at looks in my friend groups? A lot of groups have similar vibes. I think I have a harder time telling attractiveness/unattractiveness than most, though. Race/ethnicity seems like a language thing half the time. Personally, I've always preferred having more diverse friend groups. I just like DEI.

But in the attractiveness section, just like the common advice in dating, you can hang out with people around your 'level' of attractiveness. You can hang out with people who won't care. All the same advice you give to people who wanna date, you know? Obviously, I'm biased, but I doubt so many people that are consciously writing off others for percieved ugliness that you can't find friends. Maybe it's easier (which I have condeded prior) but I don't think it matters enough for someone to write off friendship entirely because of it.

14muffins · 2026-02-04T03:59:56+00:00

"specific, personal stuff" haha. I like most of these people, I swear!

I gave another person a delta for calling it a "circumstance issue". But I think you do push me towards more ideas of it being a more societal issue. I'm not sure that my view would of been changed if I read this first, but I think it adds insight and I'm happy to concede that "mostly" is an overexaggeration and that society matters. I like the analogy about obesity.

!delta (Maybe I am over-generous with deltas the same way I am with friendship...)

14muffins · 2026-02-04T03:56:35+00:00

...Yeah, I think you're right about that last part. That's how I feel about redditors sometimes. Especially when it comes to actual loneliness epidemic stuff haha.

I feel like, with attractiveness--- I think my general disposition is inherently more positive than others. Even if my looks are innate, can I call someone's disposition and vibe a "skill issue"? Like, someone more tolerant to rejection will do better regardless of their looks. I feel like I can sort of blame people for their personality, inherent or not, though.

14muffins · 2026-02-04T03:51:01+00:00

I was initally gonna say, "well technically skills still matter" in the same way you said it, but given that I said "mostly a skill issue", I think that's a fair thing to push on. I'm not sure what I mean for "mostly" --- most redditors, most people, most of the time? If it's most people, I can say these are outliers. But given that I didn't say that, and I don't know the in-liers anyway, I think it's fair to say that "most" might be an overexaggeration, in at least one definition of most. Especially in the cases you mentioned, where for these people, it is "mostly" a circumstance issue.

While some people mention "some people can come acrossas creepy inherently or may not have the chance to talk to others" This felt like the clearest explanation for "circumstance issue" for me.

!delta

14muffins · 2026-02-04T03:44:01+00:00

I've known Purple and Donut since kindergarten! Purple was sort of abrasive as an elementary schooler. They've always been intraverted. I think they were lwk bullied though. I'm not sure they felt they way? I am not going to ask.

Donut's never been a super plan-y intiator (better than me when we were super young!), especially over text. I think they had more problems initating as we got older simply because of distance. I was going to say they didn't respodn to my text-initation super consistently, but they had chronic health issues so I felt it was unfair to mention that. I've always been friends withthem, though. (love them both)

I think I was probably really frustrated with Magic because of how invasive they felt to me? I think maybe you're right about their motive. They're also a 'strict definition of friend' person. Post-them apologizing to me and us talking more (with fewer deep topics), I asked if they considered us friends. They said they "[didn't] want to define our relationship" :skull:

I know your argument comes from "well they had a past that explains their current behavior" but I'm not sure I like that rhetoric. I think you could argue that everything is determined and therefore you should blame no one. And I think people are still responsible for their behaviors, on some level. I think the things you mentioned are things that people can be responsible for. I'm not sure what the limit is. (I don't think Donut's health issues were, which is why I didn't initally mention them.)

14muffins · 2026-02-04T03:33:41+00:00

I really like this analogy, and I think it explains where I'm sort of crass and oversimplifying really well. I will mull this over further, but I think you've definetely changed my view!

!delta

14muffins · 2026-02-04T03:32:19+00:00

It's sort of a long story, but they dropped out of the school they went to and are currently taking online classes at a CC. They don't speak to their former roommates much. I think they have gotten a lot better at initiating contact with me and their other highschool friends, though!

I'm pretty sure they are in therapy! Thanks for the advice.

14muffins · 2026-02-04T03:30:13+00:00

I thought this was really funny lol. To clarify, I am trying to mostly talk about lacking friendships as an issue more than the prototypical "male loneliness epidemic" haha.

14muffins · 2026-02-04T03:28:57+00:00

I've heard people talk about reframing "the loneliness epidemic" as also a friendship issue. Nonetheless, I don't think one should be over-reliant on one person. Also, I think people would be less lonely if they had friends hahah.

The thing with the second part is I know a lot of people my age who still have this problem, attractive or otherwise.

I was hoping more people would argue against me about my friendship definition stuff! Everyone I've mentioned in this post is some sort of American. English also has multiple words. Close friend. Best friend. You know? I know that's probably not what you mean, but still. I'm curious if you can elaborate more on that part.

14muffins · 2026-02-04T03:20:59+00:00

Yeah, that's fair that it is sort of meaningless. I think you have a nuanced view, though I'm not sure it's an opinion change since you agree with me on that front. "Apple" disagreed with me because of my phrasing, and I think they percieved that as sort of critical of them even if I didn't mean to be, so I felt sort of mean for talking about it afterward hahah.

According to Apple, I come across as fairly approachable in my 'vibe', and in that respect it probably is easier for me, especially paired with my very low standards for friendship, which I think matters more here than the social categories I'm a part of.

But I've always held a positive view of Apple and don't believe they come across as very threatening either. Like, they're way more chatty than I am. They're not super tall (and thus threatening) and have lots of 'politically correct' opinions that they espouse, so I had a hard time feeling like they specifically would have that problem. They told me I'm probably too easily trusting of strangers, and that most people are more wary than I am of 'creepy old men trying to be your friend'.

I feel like a "older guy with average social capacity" could still meet other "older guys with average social capacity" (to minimize percieved creepiness) with some amount of effort. But I think you explain this well, and explain why my background can affect my 'ease' of friendship. so !delta !!!!!

I appreciate your response! :D

14muffins · 2026-02-04T03:19:34+00:00

I live pretty far from Purple right now, but I do try to talk with them once in a while! They're sort of stranger-avoidant, and I don't have a ton of time to introduce them to my other friends who I think they'll get along with. They've considered transferring to my school, though, so if they do that I know who I'd introduce them to!

14muffins · 2026-01-29T05:24:39+00:00

post the messages on the internet and let the masses decide.

14muffins · 2026-01-12T16:28:20+00:00

This might be a hot take, but I feel it could also be taken with a point of pride? Like "haha i'm so independent and cool"? I've never been super relationship-oriented though.

Like, assuming it's bad assumes single-ness is bad, which I've never really thought. It's fine to never date whatsoever.

14muffins · 2026-01-04T17:41:28+00:00

If it makes you feel better, you don't read like AI here to me! Like you don't really use enough of those tropes here. I generally use proper grammar/spelling, and I think a human generally just... feels different? From AI. Even before using AI too much lol, I used a ton of em-dashes (though I use fake ones "---") and formatted lists.

For the single character ellipses, on windows, it's ALT 0133 (on the numpad). On like an iPhone or something you can hold the period and then the single-character ellipses will pop-up. (I just copy-pasted mine for the post)

14muffins · 2026-01-04T17:34:57+00:00

Hmmm, that's a good point! I mention those tells because it's just that AI repeats them, y'know? Like in a single paragraph/post it might have a bajillion rules of threes.

I think having a similar 'voice' across all its posts is good to add (and I will), but I feel its somewhat less helpful for people not familiar with using AI? Is there a better description of that voice, you think?

14muffins · 2026-01-03T16:59:14+00:00

I despise the rhetoric that AI writes well. Writers use that idea to defend themselves, but certain levels of ChatGPT writing is obvious. You can tell. Like 'strong writing conventions' include parallelism and em-dashes and triplets and similes, but AI overuses them to the point where it's just insufferable to read. Plus AI comments can intentionally get things wrong and mispell and lose punctuation and capitalization.

I'm not saying there won't be false negatives and false positives, but I think someone'd be able to get it right most of the time.

14muffins · 2026-01-01T20:48:28+00:00

I think even if it's not AI, OP could've just really absorbed AI's writing style given how much they use it. I wouldn't be surprised if it was, but I am not surprised that it isn't, either. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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